#329: How to Upgrade Your Webinar and Email Strategy for 2026 with Jay Schwedelson (Founder, SubjectLine.com)

#329 | Dave is joined by Jay Schwedelson, Founder of SubjectLine.com and GURU Media Hub, to break down why most webinars and email programs underperform and what to do instead. They talk about how packaging drives performance, why the word “webinar” kills registrations, and how small tweaks like renaming your session, shortening it to 22 minutes, or adding an “attend to receive” hook can dramatically increase show rates. Jay also shares tactical email plays, from using white space and tighter subject lines to increasing reply rates and improving inbox placement.

Timestamps

• (00:00) - Why packaging matters more than the content
  
• (03:04) - Jay’s virtual event business and the GURU acquisition
  
• (05:50) - Why you should stop calling it a “webinar”
  
• (07:45) - The “attend to receive” tactic to boost show rates
  
• (10:19) - Why on-demand is hurting your engagement
  
• (14:28) - Why Fridays and Sundays outperform for B2B email + webinars
  
• (18:01) - How to choose webinar topics based on your goal
  
• (18:28) - Why 22-minute webinars and shorter podcasts win
  
• (29:15) - The white space + no preview text email hack
  
• (37:27) - The “reply with GUIDE” tactic to boost engagement
  
• (39:13) - Final takeaways and wrap-up

Join 50,0000 people who get our Exit Five Newsletter here: https://www.exitfive.com/newsletter
Learn more about Exit Five's private marketing community: https://www.exitfive.com/

***

Brought to you by:

Knak - A no-code, campaign creation platform that lets you go from idea to on-brand email and landing pages in minutes, using AI where it actually matters. Learn more at knak.com/exitfive.

Optimizely - An AI platform where autonomous agents execute marketing work across webpages, email, SEO, and campaigns. Get a free, personalized 45-minute AI workshop to help you identify the best AI use cases for your marketing team and map out where agents can save you time at optimizely.com/exitfive (PS - you'll get a FREE pair of Meta Ray Bans if you do).

Customer.io - An AI powered customer engagement platform that help marketers turn first-party data into engaging customer experiences across email, SMS, and push. Learn more at customer.io/exitfive

***

Thanks to my friends at hatch.fm for producing this episode and handling all of the Exit Five podcast production.

• They give you unlimited podcast editing and strategy for your B2B podcast.
• Get unlimited podcast editing and on-demand strategy for one low monthly cost. Just upload your episode, and they take care of the rest.
• Visit hatch.fm to learn more

Dave [0:00:01]: You're listening to The Dave Gerhardt Show.

Dave [0:00:02]: Hey.

Dave [0:00:17]: It's Dave.

Dave [0:00:17]: This episode.

Dave [0:00:18]: My guess is Jay Schwedelson, he's a founder of SubjectLine dot com and GURU Media Hub.

Dave [0:00:23]: He's the host of do this not that Podcast.

Dave [0:00:25]: We talked about podcasting virtual events, webinars, live events, email, SubjectLine tips, I took legitimately...

Dave [0:00:34]: I don't know why I do this.

Dave [0:00:36]: I could get the transcript later but I took about three pages of notes during this conversation with Jay.

Dave [0:00:40]: It's awesome because a lot of us are doing content and content marketing and so much of the success of content comes down to packaging.

Dave [0:00:46]: And the actual offer and the stuff we're creating.

Dave [0:00:49]: We talked so much about that Plus.

Dave [0:00:50]: Jay is just filled with little nuggets and sound bites about the best time to send email why it's actually okay to run webinars on Fridays and why some of the best performing emails they've sent to have come on Sundays The impact of removing the preview text from sending the email on open rates, there's so much good stuff in here on podcasting webinars, events, join my conversation with Jay Sc.

Dave [0:01:13]: It is a great one.

Dave [0:01:14]: Alright.

Dave [0:01:15]: Excited to do this episode, Jay.

Dave [0:01:17]: We got connected through.

Dave [0:01:19]: Email content over the years.

Dave [0:01:20]: Love your energy, expert in all things, email, events, and virtual events.

Dave [0:01:25]: We're just talking backstage, but let's kick off this.

Dave [0:01:28]: You actually you created this virtual events business?

Dave [0:01:31]: We're just talking about how to explain to your lawyer friend, like, what what a virtual event is?

Dave [0:01:35]: Right.

Dave [0:01:36]: Can you kinda like, recap the events of maybe the last thirty days, and that's a good way to introduce you and tell the story about your business?

Jay [0:01:43]: Yeah.

Jay [0:01:43]: For sure.

Jay [0:01:43]: So I have a media business called GURU Media Hub and some of the things that we do is we put on really large scale, completely bonkers very different virtual events.

Jay [0:01:52]: Ones you actually might wanna go to.

Jay [0:01:54]: We do them at scale.

Jay [0:01:55]: So we have one that's about events called Eventastic.

Jay [0:01:58]: That's about fifteen thousand people, but our biggest one is called GURU Conference.

Jay [0:02:01]: It's about thirty thousand people.

Jay [0:02:03]: It's all about email marketing.

Jay [0:02:04]: It's a virtual event.

Jay [0:02:06]: We just had it.

Jay [0:02:07]: We had Nicole him there whatever.

Jay [0:02:08]: So I whatever.

Jay [0:02:10]: Yeah.

Jay [0:02:11]: Right.

Jay [0:02:12]: That's my flex.

Jay [0:02:12]: You like that.

Dave [0:02:13]: Hold on.

Dave [0:02:13]: Hold on.

Dave [0:02:14]: Further the marketers listening, not to derail your story, but, like, how do you get nicole kid for virtual event?

Dave [0:02:20]: Is it seem like a regular event.

Dave [0:02:21]: She's got an agency and you reach out?

Jay [0:02:23]: You do.

Jay [0:02:23]: And I will tell you the thing The reason I like doing virtual events.

Jay [0:02:26]: Is that with celebs, first of all, they're a lot less expensive.

Jay [0:02:29]: Because again, to fly somewhere and show up, it's like, you know, five, ten x, what they have to do virtually.

Jay [0:02:35]: So you can get people that we otherwise way out of reach virtually.

Jay [0:02:40]: And the thing I always get asked about is jump out email marketing conference and be say, well what the hell is Nicole Kid know about email marketing.

Jay [0:02:46]: And I was like, absolutely nothing.

Jay [0:02:48]: Who cares.

Jay [0:02:49]: I go, this is a human to human thing.

Jay [0:02:51]: You wanna show up and see what you has to say.

Jay [0:02:53]: And I think that's part of why people get virtual events wrong?

Jay [0:02:56]: And they think you have, like, file is boring ass playbook that nobody cares about.

Jay [0:02:59]: So what what up happy was after the event was a big success this year, was it was bonkers, end up having a conversation with the leadership at constant contact.

Jay [0:03:07]: The big billion dollar five hundred thousand customer global brand and there

Dave [0:03:13]: you know that's where I cut my teeth at young dave's their heart with hair.

Jay [0:03:17]: That was where you became the legend that is Dave Ear.

Dave [0:03:20]: No.

Dave [0:03:20]: That's still a work in progress in my own mind.

Dave [0:03:22]: I got.

Jay [0:03:23]: Yeah.

Jay [0:03:23]: The legend you mine.

Jay [0:03:24]: And so, fast forward, they were like, we love what you're doing, and we wanna to lean in and make this even bigger.

Jay [0:03:30]: So they acquired GURU conference along with some of my other media assets, like SubjectLine dot com, and they just wanna take, you know, email marketing to, all around the globe.

Jay [0:03:40]: But so It's really validating to see, you know, a big brand like that, see value in something like a virtual event.

Jay [0:03:46]: And so, yeah, we try to look at the world a little differently.

Dave [0:03:50]: Okay.

Dave [0:03:50]: So how have you created this virtual event that is worth company spending lots of money to buy and forget that.

Dave [0:03:57]: Forget even the acquisition.

Dave [0:03:58]: Right?

Dave [0:03:58]: Even if this didn't happen, you were still gonna come here.

Dave [0:04:01]: You've created these virtual events You get thousands of people to go.

Dave [0:04:04]: You have really interesting place how you integrate brands in them.

Dave [0:04:07]: I thought people don't go to webinars.

Dave [0:04:10]: Jay.

Dave [0:04:10]: I thought webinars are dead is in Virtual Another name for webinar.

Dave [0:04:14]: Have you made this thing interesting, And let's talk about it with the lens of, like, I believe in this channel and I wanna help people realize, like, it's not that the webinars is broken.

Dave [0:04:22]: It's about packaging, and I think you guys do an awesome job at this.

Jay [0:04:25]: Well I appreciate you saying that.

Jay [0:04:26]: Let's just talk about webinars for a second besides from my events.

Jay [0:04:29]: I think webinars are critical content play for B marketers, but they are stained and they're done completely wrong.

Jay [0:04:37]: I'll give you an example what I mean.

Jay [0:04:38]: Anybody that's out there right now that's using webinars as a go to market play.

Jay [0:04:42]: If you are actually calling it a webinar, you should stop listening this podcast and go and change that What do I mean?

Jay [0:04:49]: We've done all this analysis where we take the exact same webinar, content pictures, marketing plan everything.

Jay [0:04:56]: And all we do is we do an Ab b test on calling it another the webinar or something else.

Jay [0:05:00]: So when we, for example, call webinar, a live panel, a live insider session.

Jay [0:05:07]: Right?

Jay [0:05:07]: And live insider session will outperform the word webinar by about thirty five percent in terms of registration.

Jay [0:05:14]: And all you've done is not use the worst word in the human language which is the word webinar.

Jay [0:05:20]: The big of stake in marketing, you have a webinar that you're promoting.

Jay [0:05:23]: You send out an email.

Jay [0:05:24]: The first word you put in your SubjectLines says webinar Colon, boring boring boring boring.

Jay [0:05:29]: Nobody cares.

Jay [0:05:30]: Mh.

Jay [0:05:30]: Okay?

Jay [0:05:31]: So you just need to think about everything, whether it's your virtual event.

Jay [0:05:34]: I'm happy to take you through some of the things that we do.

Jay [0:05:36]: But if you're thinking about your webinar, stop following else's playbook and just look at it a little bit differently, and that's how you can win.

Dave [0:05:44]: Yeah.

Dave [0:05:44]: I love that.

Dave [0:05:45]: We call ours live sessions.

Dave [0:05:47]: I don't know.

Dave [0:05:47]: Just not even...

Dave [0:05:48]: I'm never even trying to be cool with it just live sessions and he's actually become a joke that when we host them in the chat.

Dave [0:05:54]: Like, I get mad if anybody calls it a webinar, and I joke.

Dave [0:05:57]: Like, this is absolutely not a webinar, like, Wink, you know, and it works.

Dave [0:06:00]: That's amazing live insider session versus webinar even just testing that.

Dave [0:06:04]: But that that all goes back to, like, the packaging.

Dave [0:06:06]: It's like the reason no one's showing up is because we're not putting enough thought on the way in.

Dave [0:06:10]: Let's actually create a product here, and I also think there's something there's a psychological trigger or some marketing hack or like, if you can name it, It just feels more real than like, webinar tomorrow on the ten best practices for Blah.

Jay [0:06:22]: A hundred percent.

Jay [0:06:23]: And I would say there's another trick.

Jay [0:06:24]: I hate calling me tricks, but welcome to marketing.

Jay [0:06:26]: And it's on the way out, but you package in your marketing.

Jay [0:06:29]: And what we've learned is that the world now needs to have attend to receive.

Jay [0:06:34]: What do I mean by that?

Jay [0:06:36]: We know that if people show up to a webinar as opposed to watching it on demand Number one, nobody actually watches on demand.

Jay [0:06:42]: Let's start there.

Jay [0:06:43]: But if they actually show up to webinar, the percentage that they go to pipeline is about four hundred percent higher than if they watch on demand.

Jay [0:06:49]: So how do we get them to show up, because show rates are down year over year significantly.

Jay [0:06:53]: So if you don't have baked into your marketing a tend to receive Again, you might wanna stop listening and go do that.

Jay [0:07:00]: What does that sound like What does that mean?

Jay [0:07:01]: So you wanna say, if you attend live, you get the Q two summary guide for Hr professionals.

Jay [0:07:07]: If you attend live, you get beta access to our new Saas release.

Jay [0:07:11]: If you attend live, you get live Q and A that nobody else will get.

Jay [0:07:15]: And then you put that front and center in your marketing.

Jay [0:07:17]: You need to have a attend to receive elements to your webinars to increase the shop because that's when your Bd get happy on falling up on lead.

Jay [0:07:26]: So again, It's not that webinars don't work anymore.

Jay [0:07:29]: It's that everybody's doing what they've always done.

Jay [0:07:32]: Mh.

Dave [0:07:33]: So a tend to receive, do you have, like, data around that?

Dave [0:07:36]: You've seen that that improves people going because I feel like I would just go for, like, two minutes and then I've got them on the out.

Jay [0:07:42]: Yeah.

Jay [0:07:42]: So you have to stay, you know, usually, we time and we have say at least fifty percent of time for to trigger.

Jay [0:07:46]: And what we have found is actually increased show rates by over thirty percent.

Jay [0:07:50]: And when it works and when it doesn't work.

Jay [0:07:52]: It doesn't work when it's just like in the background.

Jay [0:07:54]: Like, of your marketing, it has to be one of the lead elements you're marketing.

Jay [0:07:59]: Hey, This great new live insider session.

Jay [0:08:01]: And if you show up live, you get the Q two report for blah blah blah.

Jay [0:08:04]: You need to lead with it.

Jay [0:08:06]: That's when you get the benefit.

Dave [0:08:08]: So, like, I agree and then...

Dave [0:08:10]: But that also my brain is, like, but isn't there also a play where, like, people are busy.

Dave [0:08:15]: There are so many other things, like, it is a sign of interest.

Dave [0:08:18]: If I'm interested in this topic, but I'm not gonna show up live because I got other stuff on.

Dave [0:08:22]: Maybe I am gonna listen to it later, I know that that's kinda like people who, you know, everyone works out every day or whatever it's just you say it, but you actually do it.

Dave [0:08:30]: I don't...

Dave [0:08:30]: I feel like, if that content is good, though, when I wanna spread that to more people, like, I wanna send you the recording.

Jay [0:08:38]: So here's the thing.

Jay [0:08:39]: The answer is yes, we should be wonderful to all people.

Jay [0:08:41]: I don't subscribe to that at all.

Jay [0:08:44]: The problem is we've turned our marketing into Netflix.

Jay [0:08:47]: It's there whenever you want it.

Jay [0:08:48]: It's always available.

Jay [0:08:50]: You know what?

Jay [0:08:51]: That's how you want to scrolling and never watching anything Netflix.

Jay [0:08:53]: You don't know what the hell to do with yourself.

Jay [0:08:54]: So for example, at my virtual events are big giant virtual events.

Jay [0:08:58]: We get thirty thousand people whatever.

Jay [0:08:59]: We don't do on demand.

Jay [0:09:01]: That's crazy for a two day event.

Jay [0:09:03]: We do not do on demand.

Jay [0:09:05]: So if you don't show up your screwed, you don't see any of it, but what we do is what we created something called earned on demand.

Jay [0:09:12]: If you show up for one hour to our virtual events, it will trigger the on demand link.

Jay [0:09:18]: But if you don't show for at least at one hour, you don't get it at all, and people wind up saying five, six, seven hours, whatever it is, and you know what?

Jay [0:09:25]: It's not touchy feely.

Jay [0:09:26]: I get a lot of a hate email.

Jay [0:09:28]: I hate you.

Jay [0:09:29]: I really want to go.

Jay [0:09:30]: I can't believe you're not making this available, You're a towel person, people tell me to die.

Jay [0:09:33]: Which is terrible them about virtual you marketing content who cares, but the moral of the story that I found is, we need human to human connection, whether it's on a webinar, a live event in person, a virtual event.

Jay [0:09:45]: And if you wanna be all things to all people, you wanna cater to everybody Good luck to you have fun going out of business.

Jay [0:09:51]: I wanna get people there and get their energy.

Dave [0:09:53]: That's interesting because there is something I'm just thinking about selfish stick about our webinars.

Dave [0:09:57]: The people who go, it's amazing.

Dave [0:10:00]: They stay the entire time.

Dave [0:10:01]: The chat is insane.

Dave [0:10:03]: People aren't just, like, dunking on the speakers.

Dave [0:10:05]: They're like, trying to help each other out and chat and they're sharing stuff.

Dave [0:10:08]: So, like, maybe it's like you're trading off.

Dave [0:10:11]: I might have to let go of, like, but all these people aren't gonna see my content.

Dave [0:10:15]: Whatever Rather, they'll you'd be able to say, like, ten thousand impressions or two hundred and fifty super engaged people live.

Dave [0:10:21]: That's kinda the bet you're making.

Dave [0:10:23]: Right?

Jay [0:10:24]: Yeah.

Jay [0:10:24]: And you know what, it's okay.

Jay [0:10:25]: Let there be fo.

Jay [0:10:26]: Okay?

Jay [0:10:26]: It's...

Jay [0:10:27]: You know, I think live events.

Jay [0:10:29]: I'm a big believer in in live in person events.

Jay [0:10:31]: I believe that live in person events are gonna be the things that outlast Ai.

Jay [0:10:34]: Like, if I was going into my marketing here today, I would go into live in person events because it will win the day.

Jay [0:10:41]: People are gonna be starving for human connection as this Ai stuff unfold.

Jay [0:10:45]: And so I think we need to treat anything virtually, whether it's a webinar or virtual event.

Jay [0:10:50]: Whatever, as if it's a live event.

Jay [0:10:52]: Because if you miss going to that live event, then you missed it.

Jay [0:10:56]: Yeah.

Jay [0:10:56]: You go watch actually on demand and nobody's gonna do, but the more we treat live things, The more we take our online stuff, and we try to bring that live component to it, I think that that's how we're gonna win.

Dave [0:11:07]: I like that.

Dave [0:11:07]: I like that bet.

Dave [0:11:08]: I'm into that.

Dave [0:11:09]: I'm betting like, I'm using Ai, but I'm I'm really into people right now.

Jay [0:11:16]: Right now.

Dave [0:11:16]: Yeah.

Dave [0:11:16]: Right now.

Dave [0:11:17]: I think it's made me appreciated it.

Dave [0:11:18]: There's just a certain type of energy.

Dave [0:11:20]: I mean, I sit in my office and I spend half of my day.

Dave [0:11:22]: I don't know if you're real.

Dave [0:11:24]: Like, you know, it's a video.

Dave [0:11:25]: I'd spend all my time on a video conference, but then Last weekend, we had, you know, ten of our neighbors over for Brunch, and it was...

Dave [0:11:33]: Just hanging out bullshit with people.

Dave [0:11:35]: I think there's just a certain energy that I agree that we do miss.

Jay [0:11:38]: Well, you guys have created an event also, where you bring this energy live with drive

Dave [0:11:43]: Yeah.

Jay [0:11:43]: Right You bring everyone to where you are, and I guarantee you coming out of that.

Jay [0:11:47]: There's just so much more than just if you're, you know, catching on demand garbage.

Dave [0:11:51]: I was telling you about Dan, our Ceo behind the in the backstage stuff.

Dave [0:11:55]: We always joke.

Dave [0:11:55]: We call it being drunk on events.

Dave [0:11:58]: Because inevitably, one of us is somewhere the other isn't and it's like, Thursday night at eleven o'clock.

Dave [0:12:04]: I'm never up there.

Dave [0:12:05]: Late I'm calling him and he's like what?

Dave [0:12:06]: I like, dude I just left this event...

Dave [0:12:08]: I left our New York city meet up, and I'm like, I got a hundred ideas.

Dave [0:12:10]: And then, like, the next week, he's like, oh, you're just drunk on events right now.

Dave [0:12:13]: The next week, He calls me he's like, I just went to our Arizona meetup up, and you won't believe it.

Dave [0:12:16]: It's, like, there is something different.

Jay [0:12:19]: A hundred percent.

Jay [0:12:20]: Listen, I I think that especially in this world where a lot of companies are still not in office.

Jay [0:12:24]: Right?

Jay [0:12:25]: Like, remote work is still a big thing.

Jay [0:12:26]: Yeah.

Jay [0:12:27]: The only place we're really getting together are these industry events or pop up events or dinners or whatever.

Jay [0:12:34]: I think more and more, they're gonna become that much more valuable.

Jay [0:12:37]: I do think that any business doesn't matter what you sell, what you do how boring your industry is whatever.

Jay [0:12:42]: If you don't have an in person motion for your business and some capacity in terms of some sort of micro event or whatever or at least a big presence at industry events, I think that you're gonna be left behind.

Dave [0:12:53]: I wanna talk more about in person events.

Dave [0:12:54]: People love these little plays.

Dave [0:12:56]: Like, you got this subject like, you know, calling it inside session versus a webinar, they tend to receive.

Dave [0:13:01]: Give me some more webinar.

Dave [0:13:02]: We're not webinar plays you've learned over the years.

Dave [0:13:05]: Yeah.

Jay [0:13:05]: Right.

Jay [0:13:05]: So insider Such plays Webinar plays.

Jay [0:13:07]: A few things.

Jay [0:13:07]: I'm one, we're seeing attendance rates and registration rates on Fridays, crush it in the last twelve months.

Jay [0:13:14]: For so long in b to b world.

Jay [0:13:16]: It was like no.

Jay [0:13:16]: The only great thing on Fridays is because that's a really bad day.

Jay [0:13:19]: It couldn't be further from the truth.

Jay [0:13:20]: If you haven't tested it, you should because sort of coming out of the pandemic, we found that Fridays of the day you better yourself.

Jay [0:13:27]: You take less calls, somehow you consume more content, we see these show up rates and registration rates for Fridays has gone up exponentially.

Jay [0:13:35]: And the other big thing is the other big real estate that nobody's really using in B2b b is weekends.

Jay [0:13:41]: Sundays big time.

Jay [0:13:43]: Sending out long form emails on Sundays around eleven o'clock or so is incredible because I don't have a work life balance.

Jay [0:13:51]: And if you do, God bless America, God bless you If you could turn off at five Pm on a Friday and not think about work until Monday at nine Am, you are unicorn.

Jay [0:13:59]: Okay?

Jay [0:14:00]: On Sundays is the only time I can really look at my email, not anybody slack me or this other garbage, and I can consume stuff.

Jay [0:14:07]: And what we have seen, this was a media post as well that click through rates for business to business emails on Sundays it's up like sixty percent year over year.

Jay [0:14:16]: So if you're not promoting that webinar on Sundays, you're not taking advantage of Fridays, I think there's a lot of real estate out there that you should be reconsider.

Dave [0:14:24]: Amazing.

Dave [0:14:24]: Amazing.

Dave [0:14:24]: We need all this.

Dave [0:14:25]: I need all this in our business that we just had this conversation in yesterday estimate.

Dave [0:14:28]: We need to do another promo for an event that we have coming up, and I was like, we should send the email on Sunday.

Dave [0:14:33]: Yes.

Dave [0:14:33]: Because we're targeting exact and, like, a lot of execs are Sundays, you know, is the cleanup.

Dave [0:14:38]: You get ready for the weekday.

Dave [0:14:40]: And then Right.

Dave [0:14:40]: Interesting.

Dave [0:14:41]: You're Anecdote on Friday.

Dave [0:14:42]: I think there's something we gotta do.

Dave [0:14:43]: We have this group of Cmos, and we do their events on Fridays, and they all stick Actually, we didn't choose Friday.

Dave [0:14:49]: We gave them a list of the dates, and they almost all always said Friday, and the Wow, show rates on Fridays have been awesome.

Dave [0:14:54]: And so I think there is something there.

Dave [0:14:56]: I love the way you frame that.

Dave [0:14:57]: The...

Dave [0:14:58]: We all spend the week.

Dave [0:14:59]: You kinda have less meetings on Fridays.

Dave [0:15:01]: Maybe Fridays your maybe leaving a little early to go, pick up the kids or do something?

Jay [0:15:06]: Hundred percent.

Dave [0:15:07]: You take a call that day.

Dave [0:15:08]: I like that.

Dave [0:15:08]: That's really good.

Dave [0:15:09]: This might be too much.

Dave [0:15:10]: We're giving away too much.

Dave [0:15:11]: I'm not gonna publish this.

Dave [0:15:13]: Sorry.

Jay [0:15:14]: Okay this

Dave [0:15:14]: is for me.

Dave [0:15:14]: This is for our business.

Dave [0:15:15]: Yeah.

Dave [0:15:16]: What about the content?

Dave [0:15:18]: Like, for me, Love all these plays, all these things matter, but, like, to your point about Nicole Kid is that who was.

Dave [0:15:25]: Right?

Jay [0:15:25]: Yeah.

Dave [0:15:26]: It doesn't matter if she was on Friday or Tuesday.

Dave [0:15:28]: Someone's gonna go because she's there.

Dave [0:15:30]: Right.

Dave [0:15:31]: Talk about the overall just like packaging.

Dave [0:15:33]: So we have this name live insider sessions.

Jay [0:15:37]: Right.

Dave [0:15:37]: How can people get better on figuring out, like, what should we do a virtual event about though?

Jay [0:15:42]: So that's an excellent question.

Jay [0:15:43]: I always think there's two paths that I would need to think about because the biggest they in B2b marketing is that everything is a lead.

Jay [0:15:49]: If someone downloads a guide.

Jay [0:15:51]: Oh, they go to our Kpis for our lead, we got another lead.

Jay [0:15:54]: If someone registers for webinar...

Jay [0:15:56]: They're a lead.

Jay [0:15:57]: If someone downloads a case study, they're a lead, and somehow, we say all these leads are created equal, which is absolutely ridiculous because if someone downloads the one zero one guide for Hr, whatever, their garbage compared to someone downloads a case study is obviously in market for whatever the hell it is you're promoting.

Jay [0:16:13]: And the reason I say that is, I don't think that numbers should be what we are measured again against.

Jay [0:16:18]: So for example, if you're doing a webinar, what is your goal?

Jay [0:16:22]: Is your goal, database growth, general awareness?

Jay [0:16:24]: Okay.

Jay [0:16:25]: Great.

Jay [0:16:25]: Do basic stuff that's like, you know, what everybody needs to know about the twenty twenty six whatever, very top funnel stuff.

Jay [0:16:31]: But if you're trying to sell product.

Jay [0:16:34]: Okay.

Jay [0:16:34]: You wanna get people there mid funnel, not top of funnel, the intentional of the title of your webinar is very important.

Jay [0:16:41]: How to fix this problem with your productivity in three simple steps because that's actually what your product does, and you're gonna get less people do register, but the people that do register are going to be more of a mid funnel play.

Jay [0:16:55]: So I think you have to really be not just what should we call it?

Jay [0:16:58]: Think about what the outcome is that you want, and the other packaging thing, which is really more of a trick hack gimmick, whatever is how long your webinars are.

Jay [0:17:07]: If you're doing a sixty minute webinar insider session, You are out of touch.

Jay [0:17:12]: Nobody wants to put that on their schedule period end of story.

Jay [0:17:16]: Awesome.

Jay [0:17:16]: Don't even gonna wanna do forty five minutes.

Jay [0:17:18]: We are huge fans right now of twenty two minutes.

Jay [0:17:20]: I'm gonna tell you why that is the secret sauce number twenty two minutes.

Jay [0:17:24]: Because what happens when you promote is twenty two minutes.

Jay [0:17:26]: I'm like, I can do twenty two minutes, they put a thirty minute block on their calendar.

Jay [0:17:31]: Okay?

Jay [0:17:32]: And you give them I hate that line, but you give them back eight minutes.

Jay [0:17:35]: And people say, well, I can't do it in twenty two minutes.

Jay [0:17:38]: I'm like, well, then you're boring and you stink.

Jay [0:17:40]: I had a yam, the Ceo of Hubspot.

Jay [0:17:44]: Him on my podcast.

Jay [0:17:44]: I did that episode it was an eighteen minute episode because I knew...

Jay [0:17:49]: Couldn't have talked to her for three days.

Jay [0:17:50]: Okay?

Jay [0:17:51]: Is Geometry yam?

Jay [0:17:51]: But I knew if I kept it that short, it would get consumed that much more.

Jay [0:17:56]: When you promote your webinars twenty two minutes.

Jay [0:17:58]: For some reason, first off, anything that's not a round number, a five or a zero, like, thirty minutes an hour or whatever,

Dave [0:18:03]: not believe.

Jay [0:18:04]: It, He'll believe it more.

Jay [0:18:05]: Yeah.

Jay [0:18:06]: So testing different time elements is another way that I would really lean it.

Dave [0:18:11]: Do you think I should do that for the podcast then too, like, every podcast is just a default book an hour, but, like, if I just cut this right now, that was an amazing fifteen minutes just on webinar stats, but then I'm like, but there's so much other stuff that I still wanna talk to you about.

Jay [0:18:26]: Yeah.

Jay [0:18:26]: Well, so I have a podcast.

Jay [0:18:28]: I've had a podcast for while, and I have found the shorter I go, the more downloads I.

Jay [0:18:32]: I think I got to zero minutes I'll take on Mel Robbins.

Jay [0:18:34]: But really more to it though is it's not even about is the content good.

Jay [0:18:38]: People make the mistake with podcast podcasts that, I'm gonna have the greatest episode.

Jay [0:18:43]: This content is so good.

Jay [0:18:44]: Who cares.

Jay [0:18:45]: How good your content?

Jay [0:18:46]: That's not what people are doing.

Jay [0:18:47]: They're looking at the title of the episode.

Jay [0:18:49]: And then they're saying, how long is that?

Jay [0:18:51]: Twenty two minutes.

Jay [0:18:53]: Okay.

Jay [0:18:53]: Fine.

Jay [0:18:54]: Then they...

Jay [0:18:54]: Other times they're look at an hour and ten minutes.

Jay [0:18:57]: What is this garbage?

Jay [0:18:58]: Who was an hour ten minutes for anything, and they say screw that.

Jay [0:19:01]: Now there's plenty people out there say, no.

Jay [0:19:03]: No.

Jay [0:19:03]: I listen to this time and I'm driving And do it again and again again and great.

Jay [0:19:07]: You know twelve super fans good for you.

Dave [0:19:09]: Yeah.

Jay [0:19:10]: The reality of it is if you chop it up, here's the way that the algorithm works on Apple and spotify and all the thing.

Jay [0:19:16]: They're looking at your downloads.

Jay [0:19:18]: Okay?

Jay [0:19:19]: And so if you chop up this episode to four things.

Jay [0:19:22]: And people are loving it, and now they download the next ten minutes.

Jay [0:19:25]: The next twenty minutes.

Jay [0:19:26]: The next whatever, you're getting more downloads, and then the algorithm within Apple land and Spotify land circulates your show more.

Jay [0:19:34]: So not only do you get more listeners because are not turned off by how long it is.

Jay [0:19:38]: You're actually getting more listeners because the algorithms are seeing you're getting more downloads basically you're gaming the system.

Jay [0:19:43]: Mh.

Jay [0:19:44]: And that is actually how you get greater circulation.

Dave [0:19:46]: But in the Yam example.

Dave [0:19:48]: Yeah.

Dave [0:19:49]: Did you just pick one topic and, I'm I'm gonna interview it just on this thing and that's it.

Jay [0:19:54]: Exactly Right.

Jay [0:19:54]: Yeah.

Jay [0:19:54]: With her, I just did that.

Jay [0:19:56]: With her is that that's it.

Jay [0:19:57]: We're gonna talk about this in and out.

Jay [0:19:58]: Yeah.

Jay [0:19:59]: Gone.

Jay [0:19:59]: And let people want more?

Jay [0:20:02]: It's okay.

Dave [0:20:03]: But, like, what if why not...

Dave [0:20:04]: If she said yes to the pod, you probably could've got it for an hour?

Dave [0:20:07]: Why not have recorded four twenty minute segments and then, like, you can put them out over time.

Jay [0:20:14]: I should have done that.

Jay [0:20:14]: Okay.

Jay [0:20:15]: No.

Jay [0:20:15]: That was a fail.

Dave [0:20:16]: Okay.

Dave [0:20:16]: I'm just wondering...

Dave [0:20:16]: No.

Dave [0:20:17]: Because I'm trying to understand, like, this is actually a great takeaway, which is, like, I'm totally with you if I saw a podcast episode on, you know, that was seventeen minutes long.

Dave [0:20:25]: Specifically on webinar tips.

Dave [0:20:27]: I'm like, oh, cool.

Dave [0:20:28]: Yeah.

Dave [0:20:28]: Sometimes I even do this on my own podcast is, like, I talked to the guy about where he went to college for freaking thirty minutes.

Dave [0:20:35]: And I'm like, why did I do

Jay [0:20:37]: that?

Jay [0:20:37]: No.

Jay [0:20:38]: It's And and we chop ours up.

Jay [0:20:41]: And then we...

Jay [0:20:41]: It's also good for social too.

Jay [0:20:42]: Because then you can almost put the whole thing on social with one clip.

Jay [0:20:45]: You know what I mean?

Jay [0:20:46]: Because it's a topic.

Dave [0:20:48]: Yeah.

Dave [0:20:48]: But I just...

Dave [0:20:48]: There's a psychological thing there, which you totally.

Dave [0:20:51]: And then the webinar thing is also super smart.

Dave [0:20:52]: An hour, and that's a big ass.

Dave [0:20:55]: You know, you to come on this podcast means you...

Dave [0:20:57]: Alright, If I could talk to Dave.

Dave [0:20:58]: I know he's like, okay, I legit whatever it'll be worth it.

Dave [0:21:00]: An hour is a big block on my calendar.

Dave [0:21:03]: And if I got an hour, I've start to freak out, but twenty two minutes.

Dave [0:21:06]: Now you block it Thirty, You can make a coffee in between your next meeting.

Dave [0:21:09]: Example.

Jay [0:21:10]: It plays everywhere.

Jay [0:21:11]: So, like, the tab has an email newsletter that's out there.

Jay [0:21:13]: One of the best things you could do in an email newsletter is you put it in the pre header or you put it at the end of every content block and your newsletter you add two men read, The number two, m I n Read, or three men read.

Jay [0:21:25]: Right?

Jay [0:21:26]: You put that the end of your content blocks.

Jay [0:21:28]: You put that in the pre head of your email.

Jay [0:21:29]: You know, five men read, whatever it is.

Jay [0:21:31]: We need to have extreme management of expectations related to time.

Jay [0:21:35]: All we are thinking about when we're deciding whether to consume a piece of content, whatever it is is, do I wanna make time for this?

Jay [0:21:42]: And it's in the subconscious.

Jay [0:21:43]: When you add things like three men read to that content block and Google does this all the time in your newsletter They'll decide, you know what?

Jay [0:21:52]: I'm gonna click on this.

Jay [0:21:53]: I got a hundred and eighty seconds to read about whatever and your click through rates go up exponentially.

Jay [0:21:58]: Thinking about what the person's experience is and how to, you know, consider their time can be a game changer.

Dave [0:22:06]: So do you have any opinions on, like, newsletter length?

Jay [0:22:10]: I have opinions on things being visually boring?

Jay [0:22:12]: My newsletter is very long, but what I mean by visually boring is one of the biggest fails, I think in all of email newsletters is when you open up a newsletter, and you see big content block.

Jay [0:22:21]: So for example, if I got a text right now from my mom, and it was this giant text block whatever.

Jay [0:22:28]: I would know that that was drama that I have no desire to think about right now, and I'd push my phone off to the side because Have no time for that.

Jay [0:22:35]: But when I get an email, and I open up and there's a big content block.

Jay [0:22:38]: Anything over five lines in one given block of text.

Jay [0:22:42]: We don't realize it, but subconsciously, we immediately tune it out and we, like, don't keep on reading for the most part and this is why click your rates go down.

Jay [0:22:50]: So if you could chop up your content blocks, like, three or four lines, you will see your click your rates go up.

Jay [0:22:55]: And there's gonna be plenty of people out there.

Jay [0:22:57]: Like, no.

Jay [0:22:57]: No No.

Jay [0:22:57]: Don't understand.

Jay [0:22:58]: I love Morning Brew.

Jay [0:22:59]: I love daily skim, and there's such big content blocks blah Blah blah.

Jay [0:23:02]: Amazing.

Jay [0:23:03]: It's like saying that you love the Mel Robbins podcast and it's an hour and a half long.

Jay [0:23:07]: There are going to be outliers because the content is superior and has built up this brand is following.

Jay [0:23:13]: But your thing you are a b to b boring electrical engineering supply company, and I promise you no one cares about the latest innovation and whatever it is that's going on, enough to see a content block that has seven lines, and it looks visually boring.

Dave [0:23:30]: Yeah.

Dave [0:23:30]: I haven't looked at your newsletter in a while part of.

Dave [0:23:32]: I'm on your list, and I open everything like god.

Jay [0:23:35]: I would read it either.

Dave [0:23:36]: Yeah.

Dave [0:23:36]: So your length is okay, but you break it up with side.

Dave [0:23:41]: Are you, like, making graphics what.

Jay [0:23:43]: So mine's long.

Jay [0:23:44]: I have all the stuff, but what I do.

Jay [0:23:45]: I have a hack that's worked incredibly well from my newsletter, which...

Jay [0:23:49]: So at the bottom of every newsletter I send out.

Jay [0:23:51]: My newsletter is about marketing tips, You know, what's going on, new ideas, whatever.

Jay [0:23:54]: The bottom of every news newsletter of have a section called since you didn't ask.

Jay [0:23:59]: Every news I ever put out.

Jay [0:24:01]: And it's the dumbest crap in the world.

Jay [0:24:03]: Of anything that's going on that I'm...

Jay [0:24:05]: So I'll give you an example.

Jay [0:24:06]: This past week's edition, I talked about two topics.

Jay [0:24:08]: One, I talked about that fact that high school musical is the twentieth year anniversary, and it's was released on Tiktok in full, but they chopped it up into sixty second clips, the entire movie.

Jay [0:24:20]: And I talked about my fascination with high school musical and Zac Ef, which is very weird.

Jay [0:24:25]: Not that I'm into him, but who cares.

Jay [0:24:27]: And the other thing I talked about was that in my office, somebody microwaves, a piece of fish and the entire office stun like crap.

Jay [0:24:32]: Yeah.

Jay [0:24:33]: And I thought that I smelled for about a week, and I had a breakdown over this.

Jay [0:24:37]: And so at the bottom of every newsletter I send out, I have this section, since you didn't ask where I talk about whatever nonsense in my brain.

Jay [0:24:44]: And the reason I do it is it makes everybody stay to the end.

Jay [0:24:47]: You have to give a reason for people to want to stay other than you saying and by the way, So sign up from my webinar.

Jay [0:24:54]: And here's my latest podcast episode Who Air, except for your mom.

Dave [0:24:58]: And it's such a great way to sprinkle personality into, like, you don't have to make the marketing stuff have a ton of personality because Right doesn't have to be Corny, but then people feel like, I get to know the guy who's writing this and...

Dave [0:25:09]: Exactly.

Dave [0:25:10]: And, like, that's such a good, like, anti Ai s technique also.

Jay [0:25:14]: Right.

Jay [0:25:14]: Right.

Dave [0:25:15]: You know, like, any ai is not gonna be writing about, you know, that Mary, you know, heated up the salmon in the.

Jay [0:25:19]: That's exactly right.

Dave [0:25:22]: How did you learn all this stuff?

Dave [0:25:23]: How does your brain work?

Dave [0:25:24]: Like, your high school musical, like, are you the guy that, like, if you and me went for a walk?

Dave [0:25:29]: You're pointing out, like, you see that thing right there That was actually created in nineteen twenty six by this guy?

Dave [0:25:33]: You know?

Dave [0:25:33]: Like you know are you a history guy?

Dave [0:25:35]: Like...

Jay [0:25:36]: No.

Jay [0:25:36]: I know another So first off, as it relates to pop culture, I have the worst taste in Tv.

Jay [0:25:40]: I don't know why.

Jay [0:25:41]: But from day one, I've I love reality, Tv.

Jay [0:25:43]: I've seen every episode of every season of the bachelor Bachelor, Golden Bachelor bachelor Paradise.

Jay [0:25:48]: I've seen every season of love is blind.

Jay [0:25:50]: And you name it, I've watched I mean, real house every geography.

Jay [0:25:54]: I don't know why, but I love this garbage.

Jay [0:25:56]: And so that fa needs me.

Jay [0:25:58]: And as it relates all the tips tricks and nonsense, know, this agency I've had forever, we just run so many campaigns.

Jay [0:26:06]: And I just always feel that there's gotta be something that you can do that will get you to stand Out.

Jay [0:26:12]: I'll give you one that we've been doing a lot lately that crush it that everyone sleeps on.

Jay [0:26:16]: When you talk about email marketing, what we don't think about is white space.

Jay [0:26:20]: So for example, when you look at your inbox, if you see an email, and it has no pre header.

Jay [0:26:26]: Okay?

Jay [0:26:27]: If you have a short SubjectLine less than three words SubjectLine and you have no pre header, there was extreme white space around your email.

Jay [0:26:35]: And just by having no pre header.

Jay [0:26:37]: And three word SubjectLine, your open rates, skyrocket.

Jay [0:26:41]: And all you did was create white space for your email to send out because ninety eight percent of all emails have a pre header.

Jay [0:26:49]: Now, for some people out there they're like, how do you do that?

Jay [0:26:52]: You go on Chat, You say, I use mailchimp by use Hubspot, I use Salesforce Marketing Cloud, whatever you use, how do I send on an email in my system and not have a pre header show up, because if you just don't write one, it grabs the first line text and shove it in there.

Dave [0:27:06]: Yeah.

Dave [0:27:06]: I was gonna ask you because that's not the preview text field.

Jay [0:27:09]: It is the preview text field.

Jay [0:27:10]: Right?

Jay [0:27:10]: And so...

Jay [0:27:11]: Well, there's two fields.

Jay [0:27:12]: But you're

Dave [0:27:13]: saying if you leave that blank, the default, you need to change it so the default doesn't show, like, the first line of the email.

Jay [0:27:18]: Exactly.

Jay [0:27:18]: So if you go into Chat cs.

Jay [0:27:20]: Say this is a platform we I use.

Jay [0:27:21]: I wanna have no pre header show.

Jay [0:27:22]: What do I do?

Jay [0:27:23]: It'll actually give you some different image references to put in your emails in certain spots, it's not hard to do.

Jay [0:27:29]: And then when you send it out, you will be in shock how much higher of an open rate you get, just because you have white space around your email and all the other emails don't.

Jay [0:27:39]: So it always fa me whenever I'm looking at any marketing, how can I go in the opposite direction?

Jay [0:27:45]: Whatever anybody is doing?

Jay [0:27:47]: Like, if have a webinar, and your promo has two circles of people's heads in it, and you're sending that out, don't do that.

Jay [0:27:54]: Stop it.

Jay [0:27:55]: Stop it.

Dave [0:27:56]: What if it's a cool graphic though.

Dave [0:27:57]: We do...

Jay [0:27:58]: Nobody...

Jay [0:27:58]: Let me tell you something.

Jay [0:27:59]: I can't stand.

Jay [0:28:00]: I get these email templates with these...

Jay [0:28:01]: These two people are speaking on our webinar.

Jay [0:28:03]: Nobody knows who they

Dave [0:28:05]: are.

Dave [0:28:05]: Right.

Jay [0:28:06]: Literally, nobody cares.

Jay [0:28:07]: Except that

Dave [0:28:08]: if it's Nicole kid.

Dave [0:28:08]: I actually...

Dave [0:28:09]: I used success over, like, podcast titles I had a podcast, like ten years ago with early podcast podcasting, you because actually, like, manipulate titles.

Dave [0:28:15]: And since then, I've always gone back to, like, do you put the guest name in the podcast title.

Dave [0:28:20]: Well, if it's a guest that nobody knows and I've taught a class on this sunday, it was, like, the example that I was just, like, if I had Tom Brady on my podcast.

Dave [0:28:27]: Or I should call that episode, episode two fifty six.

Dave [0:28:30]: Tom Brady.

Jay [0:28:32]: That's what I do.

Jay [0:28:32]: So I gary V.

Jay [0:28:33]: Okay?

Jay [0:28:34]: I wrote Gary V is here.

Jay [0:28:36]: You know who that is.

Jay [0:28:38]: I mean, but other than that, Yeah Right?

Dave [0:28:40]: It's normal to wanna be, like, the state of social media, what works on Linkedin and content strategy comma with Gary Vaynerchuk, but then we buried the...

Dave [0:28:49]: He buried idiot.

Jay [0:28:50]: Yeah.

Jay [0:28:50]: Whereas as, you have the Senior Vice President of marketing for whatever Saas platform?

Jay [0:28:54]: Who knows who that is?

Jay [0:28:56]: I mean, so

Dave [0:28:57]: do you only...

Dave [0:28:57]: Then are you only sending three...

Dave [0:28:59]: Like, is therefore my subject like always gonna be bad if it's more than three words?

Jay [0:29:04]: No.

Jay [0:29:04]: No.

Jay [0:29:05]: I mean, and it's all about testing.

Jay [0:29:06]: Everything I said.

Jay [0:29:07]: If I said seven things to try and to them work.

Jay [0:29:08]: Like, Jay.

Jay [0:29:09]: Yeah.

Jay [0:29:10]: Which is true in many levels, but it's all about testing.

Jay [0:29:12]: It's not gonna this everybody.

Jay [0:29:13]: Yeah this

Dave [0:29:14]: is great.

Dave [0:29:14]: I'm taking so many notes.

Dave [0:29:15]: Like, the lesson is, like, you don't need to take this as it's not like a coin operating machine where everything works for everyone.

Dave [0:29:21]: But Right.

Dave [0:29:22]: I think you've given a ton of examples that it's, like, it's like this type of thinking might be how you move the needle on some of this.

Dave [0:29:27]: Like, let's try a three word SubjectLine with nope.

Dave [0:29:30]: Preview.

Dave [0:29:31]: Right?

Jay [0:29:31]: Exactly right.

Jay [0:29:32]: And the reason that it works with three words I mean, go forwards five whatever, it's just that you make your subject going too long, You don't get the benefit of the white space.

Jay [0:29:40]: That's really it.

Dave [0:29:41]: What else should I ask you about?

Jay [0:29:44]: Preview Definitely not anything that you be watching on Tv.

Jay [0:29:47]: That is like...

Dave [0:29:48]: I have no shame.

Dave [0:29:49]: But the only...

Dave [0:29:49]: I've never been a bachelor guy, but the only my wife and I, every single night after we put tickets kids you bed, we usually have one hour before we go to bed, and we just exclusively watch Bravo.

Jay [0:30:00]: Oh, amazing.

Jay [0:30:00]: I mean, I had Andy Cohen do one of my events.

Jay [0:30:03]: So that's a great virtual or lie.

Jay [0:30:05]: Know He did.

Jay [0:30:06]: So I have an event called Eventastic, which is an event about events.

Jay [0:30:09]: Yeah.

Jay [0:30:10]: And I had him, kin it last year as a fireside side chat because First of all, Selfish, I just wanted to ask some random weird questions, which I did, but he actually puts on an event called Bravo con.

Dave [0:30:20]: Yeah.

Dave [0:30:20]: It's

Jay [0:30:21]: which is, you know, a thirty thousand person event.

Jay [0:30:23]: So I was like, oh, he's like, a unicorn.

Jay [0:30:24]: He actually does this.

Jay [0:30:25]: So, yeah, I'm all in on Bravo.

Dave [0:30:29]: Yeah.

Dave [0:30:29]: I mean, my wife, Liz is always like, you need to get Andy Cohen to come to drive.

Dave [0:30:32]: He's the best marketer there is.

Dave [0:30:34]: I don't.

Jay [0:30:34]: Oh, yeah.

Jay [0:30:34]: He's wild.

Jay [0:30:35]: He was a good dude, and he played along.

Jay [0:30:37]: He was great.

Dave [0:30:38]: Okay.

Dave [0:30:38]: What Role do you think email plays for...

Dave [0:30:40]: My audience, this audience here is b to b, mid market, Yeah.

Dave [0:30:44]: Enterprise types of marketers.

Dave [0:30:45]: What types of email strategy would you be thinking about.

Dave [0:30:49]: We're still in this world of, like, every brand kinda thinks they have to have a newsletter or they have content offers they send out?

Dave [0:30:54]: Anything that stands out as, like, you know, some strategy we can give out as it relates to, email for these more, you know, marketers at bigger org.

Jay [0:31:02]: Yeah.

Jay [0:31:02]: I would say in general, believe or not, you're not sending out enough email, which I know is gonna sound the opposite of whatever every meeting you're sitting in.

Jay [0:31:08]: Okay?

Jay [0:31:09]: And here's the reality of it.

Jay [0:31:10]: When you're in a meeting and they say, you know what?

Jay [0:31:12]: Our email engagements down.

Jay [0:31:14]: I think we're annoying people.

Jay [0:31:15]: I think we're sending out too much email, that's why it's not working.

Jay [0:31:18]: First all, that's horrible math.

Jay [0:31:19]: The less email you send out.

Jay [0:31:21]: You're going to have less performance.

Jay [0:31:23]: I don't care what goes on.

Jay [0:31:24]: The problem is that you're boring people to tears.

Jay [0:31:27]: That's the reality of it.

Jay [0:31:28]: And here's the weirdest thing about email marketing now as opposed to ten years ago.

Jay [0:31:32]: Ten years ago, you used to go to the junk spam folder, because you wrote the word free in the SubjectLine.

Jay [0:31:38]: And you you capitalize something or something stupid like that.

Jay [0:31:40]: It was based on content.

Jay [0:31:41]: That change.

Jay [0:31:42]: Anybody that tells you that there's are spam trigger words, it's garbage.

Jay [0:31:45]: That's from nineteen eighty five, whatever.

Jay [0:31:47]: The reason you go to the junk folder or spam folder now, It's based on engagement.

Jay [0:31:52]: How often are people clicking and interacting with your emails.

Jay [0:31:55]: If you don't have enough engagement, you as a sender into that network, you actually will go to the junk folder and we'll go to the spam folder.

Jay [0:32:03]: The irony of email is you actually need to be sending out enough email generating enough engagement or you won't stay in the inbox.

Dave [0:32:11]: Mh.

Jay [0:32:11]: But then the game is okay.

Jay [0:32:12]: You convinced me, we should be sending out more email which you should.

Jay [0:32:16]: It just needs to be, better, and you need crazy SubjectLines, you need crazy headlines, You always wanna think about email marketing like it's a chain.

Jay [0:32:25]: And any break in the chain?

Jay [0:32:27]: It's gone.

Jay [0:32:28]: Right?

Jay [0:32:28]: What is your friendly from?

Jay [0:32:30]: What is your from name?

Jay [0:32:31]: Is it just your brand?

Jay [0:32:32]: Are you just saying Acne or is it saying acne special content?

Jay [0:32:36]: Is it saying Acne live event?

Jay [0:32:38]: Are you starting out of the gate with your friendly from your alias with something else besides just your brand name?

Jay [0:32:44]: Yeah.

Jay [0:32:45]: Then what is your SubjectLine say?

Jay [0:32:46]: What's the first?

Jay [0:32:47]: What are your SubjectLine?

Jay [0:32:47]: What's your pre header starting with.

Jay [0:32:49]: I'll give you a great example on the pre header that people sleep on.

Jay [0:32:52]: That's that preview text that second line of text.

Jay [0:32:54]: Okay?

Jay [0:32:55]: People say it's not important anymore because Apple doesn't show it all the time.

Jay [0:32:57]: Who cares.

Jay [0:32:58]: Nobody's using that feature yet on Apple, Your pre header still very important.

Jay [0:33:02]: Here's secret sauce stuff for your pre header.

Jay [0:33:05]: If you start your pre header with one of these three words and but or plus and but or plus.

Jay [0:33:12]: They are continuation words.

Jay [0:33:14]: We are simple minded species human beings.

Jay [0:33:16]: Yeah.

Jay [0:33:17]: Okay?

Jay [0:33:17]: When you read the SubjectLine and then you see the word and, or you see the word but, or you see the word plus.

Jay [0:33:22]: All of a sudden you keep on going.

Jay [0:33:24]: Okay?

Jay [0:33:25]: And we see it lift open rates significantly by using one of those those three words because it's that chain.

Jay [0:33:30]: Get them to open, read the headline.

Jay [0:33:33]: The next thing, the next thing.

Jay [0:33:34]: So it's just about how do we keep them engaged?

Jay [0:33:36]: I talk a lot.

Jay [0:33:38]: I just know You're good.

Dave [0:33:40]: I was just trying to think about, like, it's hard because your whole thing is, like, engagement.

Dave [0:33:45]: Like, you actually wanna get people to reply.

Dave [0:33:47]: And a lot of the ways that we use email at, like, a in a b Org.

Dave [0:33:51]: It's just like, it's meant to just, like, deliver information.

Jay [0:33:55]: Yeah.

Jay [0:33:55]: Right.

Jay [0:33:56]: If someone

Dave [0:33:57]: were to reply back, it would cause all these, like, you know, ripple effects.

Dave [0:34:00]: Like, we're were just talking about this with our newsletter.

Dave [0:34:02]: The data is great, but I can get a feeling of how it went because of the responses that we're getting.

Dave [0:34:07]: Well, by way, I think

Jay [0:34:09]: it's a very important.

Jay [0:34:09]: And Han has been talking about this a lot.

Jay [0:34:11]: Which is what she calls actual reply rate, which I think is a fantastic metric.

Jay [0:34:15]: So when you send out your newsletter, and you encourage people to reply, and you're looking at that rate.

Jay [0:34:20]: I do believe and we're seeing it tested more and more.

Jay [0:34:23]: And this is super awesome hack.

Jay [0:34:25]: I'll tell you what everyone should do all the B marketers out there.

Jay [0:34:28]: So what do we all do is a B marketer or we send out...

Jay [0:34:30]: We have a content piece that we wanna promote.

Jay [0:34:32]: Right?

Jay [0:34:33]: It's the guide to whatever?

Jay [0:34:34]: You send it to email, hey, click here to download the guide.

Jay [0:34:38]: And you take them to some cheesy landing page.

Jay [0:34:39]: And you hope that they download the guide.

Jay [0:34:41]: That's what everybody does.

Jay [0:34:43]: But here's the motion that mark story test that works like, three hundred percent increase in overall response rate.

Jay [0:34:49]: What you do is you send out your email.

Jay [0:34:52]: Basically, a short letter format type email.

Jay [0:34:55]: You say hey, we have this new guide for whatever.

Jay [0:34:57]: If you want the guide, all you have to do is reply to this email and write the word guide.

Jay [0:35:04]: You're not taking the middle the landing page or anything like that, reply this email right guide, and we'll will get you that guide.

Jay [0:35:10]: Now what happens in doing that.

Jay [0:35:11]: Number one, lot more people do it than filling out the form?

Jay [0:35:15]: That's a win.

Jay [0:35:16]: But the secret hack is the number one way to stay in somebody's inbox in perpetuity is to get them to reply to an email that you send.

Jay [0:35:25]: It is a signal saying that you are interested in this sender.

Jay [0:35:29]: So when they reply guide to you.

Jay [0:35:32]: Now you have this block, this technical lock that you're going to stay in their inbox, And also, by the way, you're in a dialogue with that person, which is also extra awesome.

Jay [0:35:42]: So this idea of what you just talked about and not just anecdotally like it felt like we got some replies, but actually using it as a response mechanism, I think is a super great tactic.

Dave [0:35:53]: Yeah.

Dave [0:35:53]: I I love that.

Dave [0:35:54]: We do it, like, in our newsletter, and that one works easy because it's, like, I wrote it.

Dave [0:35:57]: Hey.

Dave [0:35:58]: It's about.

Jay [0:35:58]: Yeah.

Dave [0:35:59]: You know, what did you think, reply back.

Dave [0:36:00]: I'm, like, reply back to me.

Dave [0:36:01]: Yeah.

Dave [0:36:01]: Let me know what you thought I do read one of these.

Dave [0:36:03]: But you made me think of, like, the, like, reply guide thing.

Dave [0:36:07]: You could do that earlier on in, like, the welcome sequence and get that signal going right away.

Dave [0:36:11]: It doesn't just have to be in response to the newsletter.

Dave [0:36:13]: Yep.

Jay [0:36:14]: Agree.

Dave [0:36:14]: Okay.

Dave [0:36:14]: Jay Sc.

Dave [0:36:15]: I'm gonna wrap with you because I'm gonna test.

Dave [0:36:17]: I'm gonna put my own...

Dave [0:36:18]: I'm, like, Cut with you now because we're gonna put out a thirty seven minute episode which we usually do longer than that.

Dave [0:36:23]: Right.

Dave [0:36:24]: And I'm gonna see.

Dave [0:36:25]: You've jammed up my notebook.

Dave [0:36:26]: My mind is exploding.

Dave [0:36:27]: Great to have you people can find you on Linkedin we'll link to all your stuff.

Dave [0:36:31]: Big fan you're working and that hopefully else.

Jay [0:36:33]: Appreciate, man.

Jay [0:36:33]: You you're a rockstar star.

Jay [0:36:34]: Thanks for having me.

Jay [0:36:35]: Thank you.

Dave [0:36:39]: Hey.

Dave [0:36:39]: Thanks for listening to this podcast.

Dave [0:36:41]: If you like this episode.

Dave [0:36:42]: Do you know what?

Dave [0:36:43]: I'm not even gonna ask you to subscribe and leave a review because I don't really care about that.

Dave [0:36:47]: I have something better for you.

Dave [0:36:49]: So we've built the number one private community for B2B marketers at Exit Five, and you can go and check that out instead of leaving a rating a review.

Dave [0:36:57]: Go check it out right now on our website exitfive.com.

Dave [0:37:00]: Our mission at Exit Five is to help you grow your career in B2B marketing.

Dave [0:37:04]: And there's no better place to do that than with us at Exit Five.

Dave [0:37:07]: There's nearly five thousand members now in our community.

Dave [0:37:10]: People are in their posting every day asking questions about things like marketing planning, ideas, inspiration asking questions and getting feedback from your peers, building your own network of marketers who are doing the same thing you are so can have a peer group or maybe just venting about your boss when you need to get in there and get something off your chest.

Dave [0:37:28]: A hundred percent free to join for seven days so you can go and check it out risk free, and then there's a small annual fee to pay if you wanna become a member for the year.

Dave [0:37:37]: Go check it out, learn more, exitfive.com, and I will see you over there in the community.

‍