#220: Strategy | Strategies for Building a High-Converting B2B Homepage

In this session from the Ultimate Roast of B2B Websites, Dave Gerhardt teams up with Diane Wiredu, messaging strategist and founder of Lion Words, and Lee Reshef, Head of Product Marketing & Retention at Fiverr, to break down what makes a high-converting B2B homepage. They critique real B2B homepages, analyzing messaging, design, and user experience to highlight what works, what doesn’t, and how to fix it.

Dave, Diane, and Lee cover:

1. The biggest homepage mistakes B2B companies make (and how to fix them).
2. What belongs above the fold to grab attention and drive action.
3. How to balance messaging for multiple personas without overwhelming visitors.

If your homepage isn’t converting (or is the subject of endless internal debates), this episode is packed with actionable insights to help you optimize it.

Timestamps

• (00:00) - - Intro to Diane and Lee
  
• (03:48) - - Common homepage mistakes that kill conversions
  
• (05:02) - - What belongs above the fold and why it matters
  
• (06:41) - - The role of messaging in homepage clarity and engagement
  
• (08:22) - - Balancing multiple personas without overwhelming visitors
  
• (09:36) - - Homepage copywriting do’s and don’ts
  
• (14:09) - - The importance of A/B testing and user feedback
  
• (16:30) - - Homepage layout best practices for conversion
  
• (18:54) - - Homepage roast: Amplemarket
  
• (24:19) - - Homepage roast: Chattermill
  
• (31:27) - - The role of trust indicators and social proof
  
• (33:55) - - Common design mistakes that reduce homepage effectiveness
  
• (37:25) - - Homepage roast: PrimePay
  
• (42:20) - - Messaging clarity vs. overcomplicating the value prop
  
• (45:45) - - Final thoughts

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***

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Dave Gerhardt [00:00:00]:

You're listening to B2B marketing with me, Dave Gerhardt. Here we are, the roast. We're roasting. Anybody get their coffee? By the way, I saw that in the chat. Sandoso sending out a lot of coffee right now is awesome. Bunch of coffees out there. The chat is still going. People are still here.

Dave Gerhardt [00:00:30]:

We got hundreds upon hundreds of people. I think it was like 457 was here live, which is awesome. So I heard the SEO session was great. The chat has been fire. We are now going to talk about homepages. Let's get your homepages roasted. We have an awesome crew here. We're going to bring up.

Dave Gerhardt [00:00:48]:

Let's bring up Diane and Lee. Danielle. So here we are. This session's all about the homepage. The most important page on the website, the one that you spend all of your time arguing with the four VPs at your company about what should be on there from a messaging standpoint. We have a bunch of homepages that have been submitted. I'm going to bring on our. My partner's in roast for this session.

Dave Gerhardt [00:01:13]:

I'm going to bring them on in a minute. But we have a bunch of submissions. Like, we got hundreds of submissions for this. We have pulled out five that we're gonna roast. Maybe kindly, some will get more roasted than others. That is just how it goes. I wanna hear your feedback in the chat as well. But real quick, I got Diane and Lee.

Dave Gerhardt [00:01:32]:

Diane, why don't you say hello, introduce yourself, and then we'll kick it over to Lee. And then Lee's got a quick presentation that she's gonna take us through. Diane, how are you doing? Who are you?

Diane Wiredu [00:01:40]:

I'm great. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm really excited for this. As you can tell, I brought the fire with me. I brought some flames. This might be how some of the companies feel after the roasting.

Dave Gerhardt [00:01:49]:

I love what you've done with the place. It looks great.

Diane Wiredu [00:01:52]:

Yes, thank you. It's burning down around me. So I'm Diane. We do. I run Lion Words, which is a messaging consultancy. So I help B2B companies, mainly B2B tech and also digital service companies, create messaging that resonates with potential buyers. Right. So how do you articulate the value of your product in a way that actually makes sense, helps people care and then help them kind of translate that into homepage copy and messaging and help them get better results?

Dave Gerhardt [00:02:21]:

And where are you joining us from today, my friend?

Diane Wiredu [00:02:24]:

So I'm from the UK, as you can tell from the accent. But I'm based out in Spain, but today I am calling from Dublin. I'm actually at a SAS conference.

Dave Gerhardt [00:02:33]:

Awesome. That's that, man. How many people can relate to that in the chat on a live, not a webinar, on a live event, at a conference, hanging out somewhere in the back room. We've all been there. All right, so I'm excited. We'll chop it up with you, Lee. Who are you? Lee, how are you doing? Where are you at? And tell us who you are, what you do.

Lee Reshef [00:02:50]:

Hi, guys. So I'm broadcasting from the Fiverr office here in Tel Aviv. I run product marketing and retention for Fiverr, which means that I'm in charge of making the Fiverr mess slightly clearer to the audience, including the homepage. And also my team tries to help build a product that would help people stay with us longer, do more on Fiverr and develop a long term relationship working with freelancers on the platform.

Dave Gerhardt [00:03:18]:

Awesome. All right, you're going to set us off. You're going to be our educational portion of this and then we're all going to come back and after your presentation, maybe 10, 15 minutes, 12 minutes, I don't know what it is. We have some websites to roast and we're going to get into it, so this is perfect context for where we're going to go. Lee, I'm going to kick it over to you. I think Danielle's behind the scenes going to run the slides.

Lee Reshef [00:03:38]:

Awesome. So I know you're all here for the roast and you can't wait to get roasted and I will save myself from being roasted for taking you too long through my explanation. So we're going to be very quick and run through a couple of principles for how to build the right homepage. So at least after the horrible roast you're going to go through, you have some takeaways you can take with you and try to make things slightly better. I'm also going to share some examples with Fiverr and that's actually what I wanted to start on. So I, I decided to take you on a journey back to Fiverr as It was like 14 years ago. This is the agenda for today, by the way, but it's going to be fairly quick. You don't have to immerse yourself in it.

Lee Reshef [00:04:17]:

We're going to go over Fiverr's homepage throughout the years and then kind of what to look for when building or optimizing the homepage, and then who's visiting the page, what's the target audience that we're aiming for, then how to craft a high impact homepage. Some of the main challenges I'm sure you guys are facing and I'm going to end with how Fiverr leveraged Fiverr Pro to solve some of those challenges and then I even have a do's and don'ts slides for you guys to take as a takeaway. So this is Fiverr of 14 years ago. When I first saw this I was like I wanna work here. Like this looks fun and kind of crazy and very unoptimized. But the company changed quite a lot since then. It started as a place where everyone can get online services for $5 and some bizarre over the years Fiverr noticed that a lot of the audience that tends to return and succeed on Fiverr doing more business y things or kind of more serious online services. So the homepage transformed to something a bit more professional or at least not so unprofessional over the years.

Lee Reshef [00:05:23]:

We took it slightly further and you can see that the headline now changed to find the perfect freelance service for your business. So Fiverr definitely took a step in that direction. Still welcoming our personal buyers that want to design a T shirt or an album cover, but focusing more on the ones who have high chances to convert and generate lifetime value. All the way to the homepage of Fiverr as you see it today, Find a perfect freelance service for your business. So we're staying with our business buyers. The page is a bit slicker, kind of looks more like 2024, but also is way more focused and we're going to talk about how we got to that focus with a few principles here. This is the final homepage, by the way, as it is now if you scroll to Fiverr.com so what to look for when building a homepage? The first thing, and I'm sure you all think about that, is conversion. The ultimate metrics of success.

Lee Reshef [00:06:13]:

Obviously it's the first time you're meeting your user and you want to get them all the way to making the final purchase or contacting you or whatever your conversion metric is. But it's not the only thing worth looking at. I think bounce rate is one of the most interesting things. That is a really strong indicator that the way you brought them to the homepage doesn't necessarily match what you chose to put in there. So maybe you led them to think that they're going to see something and then they saw something completely different and just decided to bounce. If that's the case, something in your journey or messaging should definitely change. It's either unclear or not what you wanted it to be. I also like looking at scroll depth and how much time they spend on the page to understand the behavior.

Lee Reshef [00:06:58]:

I think there's also like some sort of an ideal flow that we imagine of a user that's coming and if they find themselves spending more time on areas where we didn't want them to be, then maybe it's not as compelling as we thought it would be. Or the story we're trying to tell is kind of coming across differently. And then there's think of what's your optimal scroll time like there's forever on the homepage is also not an amazing result. Right? You want them to spend a decent amount of time getting to know you, but then you also want to know that they found what they were looking for. I also look at navigation patterns. I think that's a super good way to know what they came for. So if everyone's clicking on about and then about us, then you didn't do a good job explaining what this company is. Or if your solution thing is the most clicked on, maybe open it up, put your solutions out there in the first fold and save them the click.

Lee Reshef [00:07:53]:

Right. So what people do on your page will help you understand what they're trying to get from you and maybe save them some time and save you some lost traffic that is getting lost.

Dave Gerhardt [00:08:03]:

Hey Lee, one question in the chat, can you share what you all use for to get scroll depth? Someone mentioned fullstory is one I'm curious to what you use with.

Lee Reshef [00:08:12]:

Yeah, Fiverr one wouldn't help you. We have a lot of in house measurement tools for that but maybe other people want to share in the chat what they are doing for first girl gaps. Sorry that I don't have a better answer but yeah I see some answers in the chat. I hope you guys are following too. Hotjar seems to be everyone's favorite and then the last thing I wanted to talk about is user demographics. So what do we know about the people that come and what do we know about the people that convert and do? The ones who convert are the ones we were trying to convert. I think in general it's worth thinking about who's visiting your homepage. So the first thing to keep in mind is that depends on how mature and progressed your company is, but probably not always lead to the homepage.

Lee Reshef [00:08:58]:

The more advanced you'll get, the more you'll have paid channels that lead to specific landing pages or have tailored messages for other audiences. Fiverr has tens if not hundreds of landing pages that connect to different campaigns and gavi from Fiverr is going to talk to you about those later. But that means that the traffic that's left for the homepage is a bit generic and kind of arbitrary at times, right? So it's people that come from organic search, meaning they knew your name, the name of your brand or something about you, or it's link based traffic. So someone gave them your link, they read a PR article about you, some sort of partnership or share of your link, they could be direct, so they knew you so well that they typed your name with a.com after it and got to your homepage. Or they can be returning ad traffic or a result of out of home campaign, meaning they heard about you through your channels out there, but it took them some time to digest and then they thought about you later, look for you organically and land it on your homepage. Okay, that's kind of a broad range of people and I think that what they all have in common is that their intent is very far or unclear, at least not through the channel that they came from. So you have to do a good job explaining to them your basics. Some of them know more, some of them know nothing.

Lee Reshef [00:10:27]:

But this is the most like generic traffic you will get. You can get specific in landing pages, but you can get specific with those. You have to first let them know who you are. So crafting a high impact homepage is an art and a science together. But the first thing I have to say is you have to test. There's no way to know based on a gut feeling how the audience is going to react to one change or another. And I think a B testing is super important when it comes to homepages. But it's also tricky.

Lee Reshef [00:11:00]:

I think you should test the page as a whole and not every component separately. Because if you would test every component on its own, you would probably optimize that specific component to conversion. But then if you have a page with seven conversion optimizing components, then it's a super annoying page, right? Something needs to be delightful, compelling, tell a story without having a click at the end of it. So I think the composition of the entire page together is what's worth testing. It means that you'll be slower to make changes because you want to change fold by fold or like little aspects and check how they impact the entire page. But to me that's the way to go. Try to get user feedback and be insight driven by simply talking to your user, talk to random visitors and talk to heavy users at the same time, because the page is somehow catering to both and they probably need different things, but you can find a way to not harm both of their intentions and get what you need from each of them. Survey is another good way to get direct input from your audience.

Lee Reshef [00:12:13]:

I wouldn't even be shy giving up some real estate to get the insights you need, at least for a temporary while prioritizing the first poll. I think you all know it, but you probably for some of them will only get this. So if they had bounced, just make sure that they saw what you wanted them to see and the very quick chance that you had. And it's usually one sentence written in bold letters, so just make sure it's the right one. Feature placement is something I wanted to talk about because I honestly wanted to just strongly advise against it. I know you must be excited about new things that you have, but they're not new to your first time users. Everything is new to them. There's no point in talking to them about specific features or something specific you want to promote.

Lee Reshef [00:13:01]:

They came to hear about your company as a whole and understand what you're about and the fact that you just built something doesn't really matter to them all that much. And then the last is user centric approach. When you try to think of your one big sentence or sentiment, just try to think about what's in it for the user and try to phrase it from their perspective, right? What's in it for them? What are you going to do for them? Not what you're all about or what you came to do, but look at it from their standpoint. So let's talk about challenges a little bit to make sure you all feel as supportive as you should just before we roast you. So the first one, and I think we touched on it, is one page for everyone. There's a really broad audience out there with different levels of knowledge about your service and different intent and you have to somehow cater for everyone. That's hard. And we're going to talk about how Fiverr solved it in a sec.

Lee Reshef [00:13:55]:

You want to be making sure you're guiding users through, right? So you're helping them find what they want quickly. You put the things that they probably came for in the first fold, but you also want to make sure they read enough about you and you guide them through to the sections that you want them to experience. So there's a challenge of how much to lead them and how much to let them explore on their own that I'm sure you're all playing with. And that's a pretty frustrating balance. I Think balancing conversion versus the entire page like we talked about in the testing section is super challenging. Fiverr is a super conversion oriented company, very bullish about that. And every time we're trying to add some sort of delight component or trust enhancing thing into the homepage, it's a whole to do. You have to fight for the real estate.

Lee Reshef [00:14:44]:

But I think at the end of the day, especially in long term testing results, you do see that it's worth the effort. Above default content is your most important thing. It's what everyone's going to see. But you also probably want to put the call to action in there. The one thing you want them to do so balance keeping it minimal and also having enough things for them to do is also a super frustrating task. And then the last thing is measuring long term success. So you want to be agile and quick on making changes in your page, but you also want to measure long term conversion and not only if someone bought or clicked contact us but was it the right person? Did we end up growing them to have long LTV because we convey the right message from the get go? So I think balancing quick iterations of change with long term tests is another thing that we all have to keep in mind all the time. Fiverr is challenged by all of those things, but I think the first one was the most challenging for us.

Lee Reshef [00:15:45]:

Fiverr has an unbelievable number of visitors yearly. We're talking 4 million users a year, not to mention the millions of millions that just come to see the homepage. And we had one page to cater for everyone. But as you saw through the years, Fiverr progressed to be more of a business solution for businesses that need professional services done. And those businesses got bigger over time until we got to a point where we felt like we couldn't provide the individual buyer that comes for a T shirt or a professional presentation through the same page and the same service that is needed for a business like yours. I'm sure that when you see Fiverr's homepage it might be compelling to some of you. It has a feeling that you're going to get something done quickly, but I'm not sure it conveys enough confidence that you're putting your money in a premium service that's going to give you what you need. And we felt like the gap between those population is becoming too big that we have to do something about it.

Lee Reshef [00:16:53]:

And we created Fiverr Pro, which is a different offering on the same marketplace of Fiverr, but with vetted talent and more support that businesses need. And that resulted of course in its own homepage. So it allowed us to separate the audience, at least in some way based on business size and the depth of the business intent, to make sure that we are able to offer the services that businesses actually need, but also put them front and center in our homepage. So Fiverr Pro, and I'm sure you guys will relate, should be way easier and more approachable to businesses like yours, right? When you're thinking about working with freelancers, I'm sure there's many concerns about their quality, but also about how am I going to find the right one and who's going to manage to work with them day to day. It's almost like a new employee, but they don't sit here. So project management is something that we knew our audience is going to need and that's one of the services Fiverr Pro offers. In addition to that, we're offering money back guarantee, which is another USB we just had to have on our homepage in order to convert businesses that come with true intent. So if you want to pay something that's fairly expensive for an online service with someone you haven't met, you need to know the risk is somehow mitigated and that Fiverr has your back.

Lee Reshef [00:18:18]:

And that's what Fiverr Pro was set to do. So we offer money back guarantee, project management and also AI matching services. Cutting edge technology that is not necessarily needed for the personal buyer that's coming for a album cover or a wedding invitation, but definitely needed for businesses who are trying to grow and go for the best option and use their dollars in the best way they can for growing their business. So by creating Fiverr Pro, we basically decided to ignore the first challenge or give into it and say that we no longer cater for everyone's needs with one homepage and we just have to separate and offer different usps that can be a more appropriate entryway to the Fiverr marketplace, but also offer services that are going to create longer term lifetime value with those customers. Oh, by the way, talking about Fiverr Pro, question to you guys, I think you're the classic audience for Pro. When you're looking at the two homepages now, which one do you feel will convert you better? The top one is Fiverr, the bottom one is Fiverr Pro. Interesting. I see votes here and there.

Lee Reshef [00:19:30]:

Top two, bottom Pro. Okay, okay, kind of what does the data say?

Dave Gerhardt [00:19:35]:

What's the real answer? Do you know?

Lee Reshef [00:19:37]:

Okay, so, yeah, so the real answer is that the Fiverr Pro should leave on and it defin better businesses. But of a certain size. So the people who voted one I would take a guess and say that you have under five employees. The people who said two probably have more based on data or at least it's not that decisive, but at least budget size and company size indicate that. If you're about five to 10 employees and you're working with higher budgets, then the bottom page converts way better. Not only because of the page itself, but also because the services that Fiber Pro offers makes it much easier for businesses to decide to go for freelancers. I'm going to just end on that. Some do's and don'ts for the future and tons of empathy for all of you trying to optimize your homepages, navigating many different challenges and resources.

Lee Reshef [00:20:30]:

But consider a homepage as a comprehensive page. Like look at the page as a whole. Remember that hopefully they will scroll down and then it's one experience and some parts need to be delightful, others need to be a bit more pushy. But try to keep it a balanced experience in general. Introduce your primary value proposition in the first fold. Remember there's a bounce rate. You're going to lose some of them. Use the opportunity you have to get what you need.

Lee Reshef [00:20:56]:

Focus on what's in it for the user. Don't be so self centered. Even if you have an amazing new feature, they probably don't care that much. Include elements of the light to engage users. Place CTA's top and bottom obviously and ensure messaging aligns with the broader user experience. So please don't bring them from a marketing campaign that has a haha amazing funny look and feel and then land them on a super boring page that's insanely professional and has nothing to do with a campaign that brought them that results in a bounce rate. And then don't test each section separately. We talked about it.

Lee Reshef [00:21:30]:

Don't overwhelm them with features and news. Don't overly sell or be aggressive. They already came so you've done the hard part. You brought them to your page. Now be slightly nicer and don't overload the first fold with too much information. Again, this is your one shot to not do it, so keep it kind of simple and I think with that we are ready to start running.

Dave Gerhardt [00:21:52]:

Hey, before we do that, I want to bring in Diane and I want to get your opinion on this because anytime we talk about homepages and website messaging I see this question come up and I'm curious to hear you Diane, since this is in your wheelhouse. Companies that sell to multiple Personas, right? I think that often comes up inside of a company. It's like, yeah, we don't just sell, you know, this hat to bald 37 year old dads in Vermont, which would be my ICP. Right. We sell to like these four or five Personas. And I think typically that's also a source of a lot of friction internally because then you have like different business owners and like this person has a revenue number on them. They feel like the homepage isn't giving them enough love. There's lots of things.

Dave Gerhardt [00:22:33]:

How do you help a brand or how would you give someone here, like navigate that challenge internally?

Diane Wiredu [00:22:37]:

Yeah, of course. That would be a crazy bad icp. Right.

Dave Gerhardt [00:22:42]:

So dialed in, bad for you, not bad for me.

Diane Wiredu [00:22:45]:

Now the buyer, I'm not even going to get into like how much I hate those types of buyer Personas, which is like this person who lives here. But we'll get into that because the first thing I think to say is when you're targeting multiple ICP's, your homepage obviously cannot do the job of speaking to them all in a way that really, really resonates across them. All right. That's what your landing pages for. Like we said, the homepage is your storefront. It's got to do a lot of work and it can't do magic. And so what you need to do in that way is look at this as there has to be a pain point. There has to be a point of friction, a point of overlap across those audiences.

Diane Wiredu [00:23:21]:

And you have to do a lot of that deep work where like we talked about going beyond the icp, going beyond the industry and looking at like what problem are you solving for all of these and find that missing link to put in that hero. But then your homepage really has to do that job then of funneling those people directly to that place where they can get the information that really speaks to them. I mean there's so many right now. I'm trying to think off the top of my head. I know like loom right over the years. Like it's a tool that, you know, sales teams are using, marketing teams are using, freelancers, agencies, all sorts. Right. And there's no way for me to speak super dialed into all of those.

Diane Wiredu [00:23:55]:

And so you have to really tap into like your messaging at a higher company level. What is it that we actually do for everyone that ever that actually resonates and then start pushing people through to those specific pages where you can really kind of speak to the pain and how you help them on the day to day.

Dave Gerhardt [00:24:10]:

Yeah, I think Andy put a good comment in the chat. Homepage is the Walmart greeter. Gets the people who don't know what they're looking for to the right place as fast as possible. And I love that. I put an example from webflow in the chat because I think they're a good example of that. Right? It's a website builder. However you want to explain it, you could make the case that they have 20 different Personas, right? And so the homepage, if you go to the homepage, it's really focused on the overall product use case, what they do, it looks great, it's easy to use, blah, blah, blah. But if you go to the top at the navigation, they have a dropdown that has product and so that has all of the like elements of the product that they have.

Dave Gerhardt [00:24:43]:

But then if you go to solutions, you'll see webflow for enterprise, webflow for agencies, webflow for freelancers. And so I think that's a really good model to think about. Like homepage greets you, gets you to the right location, you're going to have other product and solution pages that are going to take you to something more specific for you.

Diane Wiredu [00:24:58]:

This is the key of messaging, right? Like if as a company you cannot simply say what it is that your product does, if you can't boil down your value proposition without going super deep into icp, then you have a problem. So you need to take it a layer back and say like, what is it that we do before we start tailing? Because you can't tailor every single pitch to everyone individually, you need to have a key, one key message. I call it like an okay, right? So like what's the one key message?

Dave Gerhardt [00:25:21]:

Okay, is it time to pull up these websites? Here we go.

Diane Wiredu [00:25:25]:

Let the roost commence. I have to say, while you're getting things up, Dave, like a little disclaimer. I have a love hate relationship. I know I've gone all in with the fire, but I do have a love hate relationship. So it's like be aware that we don't know all of your data, we don't know all of the conversion. I think we asked a bit of information, right? So we've got a little bit of insight. But you know, you have to kind of take these things with a pinch of salt as well. We're giving you our expert opinion.

Dave Gerhardt [00:25:48]:

But yeah, if you want to follow along at home, it's amplemarket.com is the first site that we're looking at and these have all been submitted by people who have, you know, we didn't just comb through the Internet and find random websites to give feedback on. All right, so. All right, who wants to kick this one off with some feedback?

Diane Wiredu [00:26:05]:

Well, we're starting with step into the future of sales.

Dave Gerhardt [00:26:09]:

You might see my spreadsheet right now. So they sell to B2B sales leaders and C level and founders. They get 20,000 visits a month. That's pretty good. They're a sales platform designed to help sales teams automate and optimize various aspects of the sales process, particularly outbound lead gen and outreach. Cool. All right, so one question right away, there was a question in the chat about video above the fold, front and center. Do you have a strong opinion about that?

Diane Wiredu [00:26:34]:

So it's, it's interesting because I'm like, on my screen it's like kind of half above the fold and half down as well. So there's also another question of like where things sit and the different people around as well. So I wouldn't consider this to be video above the fold. Like if it's A below the headline and the value proposition you've got like, I think that's below. It's like the first roll kind of for me to get there. Which it's fine. I'll dive in. Right.

Lee Reshef [00:26:55]:

Just wanted to. Sorry to add my videos. I like videos on homepage, but please, autoplay, don't waste a click on. Okay, I'll see your video. Just let them start playing and if it's compelling enough, then people will stick around.

Dave Gerhardt [00:27:07]:

Yes, that's fair.

Diane Wiredu [00:27:08]:

That's interesting. So let's look at the headline and subhead first. Right. So for me, the first thing personally is like, I'm feeling a lot of like buzzwordy. Right. So we've got like empower reps, we've got grow revenue which is like everybody says this benefit, we've got an all in one AI platform. This headline, it feels like it's more kind of investor led. It's like the future of rather than really being like customer focused.

Diane Wiredu [00:27:37]:

Right. So with our hero and our headline, like we do want to inspire, we want to build curiosity, we want to get prospects reading to the sub headline. But this feels like a little bit too in the clouds. Like do prospects want to join this future? Like what does that even mean? I do kind of like that eyebrow copy space. Like the future of the sales manifesto. I've just clicked through to it and you know, it leads to this kind of story where they've got this storytelling manifesto. So you know, maybe those who care would actually click through. But then that's where I keep that future.

Diane Wiredu [00:28:07]:

Like people who want to know about your storytelling, the manifesto, what it is that you're trying to do, but I don't know if I would put that in the hero. If we read through this headline and sub headline combo, it could be any platform, right? Like, step into the future of sales, empower reps and cover opportunities. Is that sales enablement? Is it a prospecting tool? Is it sales analytics? So what I would love to see here is just a little bit more clarity. Like I often talk about the kind of the rule of four and in the hero I want to see, what do you do? Who for? Why should I care? Can I trust you? Right, so we've got some trusts there in terms of like the social proof. But I'd love to see a little bit more. Like I have to kind of scroll to see that, you know, this AI, the sales copilot. I'm not sure if the copilot is a sales copilot. Is that a category now? Like, has anyone else?

Dave Gerhardt [00:28:52]:

Yeah, it must be. I think there's a lot of tools popping up in this space in the like AI sales outreach space and a lot of them are being positioned like that. I agree with your comments on the copy. I do actually like the Human plus A. I do like embracing that. I think it's like clear that the company is taking a stance of like, we. It says to me, like, you're not just going to use our tool to like spray and pray. It's not going to be fully automated.

Dave Gerhardt [00:29:17]:

We still want to use your sales team as a part of this. I do think there's some value to having that message there.

Lee Reshef [00:29:23]:

Dave, I'm more cynical than you. I read it and I was like, I'll take a wild guess. The target audience or salespeople. And then you wanted to write the sales as AI, but then you were like, oh, I can tell my target audience that they're going to be out of jobs in a second, so I'm going to do human plus AI. Like, why not? You guys can stay.

Dave Gerhardt [00:29:41]:

So to me, I love it.

Lee Reshef [00:29:43]:

I appreciate that. But like, let's talk about how AI is helping them instead of like ensuring that their place is safe for now.

Dave Gerhardt [00:29:53]:

Yeah. The reason why I'm giggling is because I think sometimes I'm just a very like, you know, happy, go, lucky American. And I've worked with so many marketers in Tel Aviv specifically. And I'm like, you're right. That's what you would say. You're more skeptical of this nonsense than I am. I agree with you. Okay, fair.

Dave Gerhardt [00:30:11]:

Hey, I have a question, Diane. On the, on the copy, on the headline, then, like, how do you, do you have a framework for like, what should the headline like, should it be more benefit driven? Should it be more specific? Because I, I get the challenge here. It's like we want to say something about what the product actually does, but then it's like, ah, but it does more than those things. And so that's why we say empower reps, uncover opportunities and grow revenue, because it's like an overarching statement for the product. Would it be better to like come up with a specific use case and value prop here and lead with that and then say the other things later?

Diane Wiredu [00:30:42]:

I mean, I think there's so many different formulas and frameworks that we can use for a headline and I really don't want to get into like, like the 400 people in the audience are all going to go and update and follow this one headline framework. Because you also want to be creative, right? But what I would say is that this combination of headline and sub headline, there has to be some balance, right? Like I need to know that I'm in the right pace, but it's the right tool for me. What you do, what kind of value I can gain, and then you build curiosity. So this step into the future for me is definitely too like in the clouds. But if that is something that you want to go for and kind of like, okay, we want to talk about this mission, you can use a copywriting framework for that. But then we want to bring this down into earth and sub headline and get really specific about what I can get and what you do. Right? And then you might want to put the category in there. So I know a lot of earlier stage startups use the kind of formula of like, okay, whether this for this in the headline, which is fine, but obviously there's no creativity there.

Diane Wiredu [00:31:37]:

So it's fine to be creative in the headline, but I think what's more important than frameworks is just ticking those boxes and making sure that when people land here, like Lee said earlier, really don't waste this initial space.

Lee Reshef [00:31:48]:

I also want to comment on the visual of the video and then the visual after that. So you scroll down a little bit, which is great, I think do that. And then so first of all, it's the same visual twice. So that's the opening image of the video and then you see it again. But now with those boxes and to me, this section is way Too complex. Like there's the moving parts below, a huge list of things in the image and then three pop ups on the side. I am very confused and I think it actually roots from the same problem that the header has. So if you would align on a value prop that's slightly more focused and clear, then that should obviously lead to what type of visuals and like main USPs you put below.

Lee Reshef [00:32:34]:

But because you went so broad with Step into the future, then you did not commit to anything specific and then you had no choice but to show all of it. So we're seeing the entire product and its opportunities and I feel like I need to be a 3 months end user to navigate through this madness.

Dave Gerhardt [00:32:51]:

So I do actually like this never miss an opportunity section though. I think it's a quick way of doing product marketing that like it explains the things that the product can do without telling you. It's like okay, very click. Oh, Kim followed my company on LinkedIn. Oh, interesting. They can tell me that. How do they know that sue joined the CRO Slack community? It's like there seems to be some interesting product marketing was showing me that we can get all these signals. But I agree that this does look like I want to click play on this because it's the same thing as the video.

Dave Gerhardt [00:33:17]:

Okay, we got to move on. We got to go on to the next site. I'm going to get rid of this one. Okay. This next company. Oh, I'm just accepting everybody's cookies. You're welcome. Track me all over.

Dave Gerhardt [00:33:27]:

Okay, so this is Chattermill CX Insights and research teams looking to analyze large volumes of customer feedback to uncover customer insights. Anything we should know about this page? Your company? Nope. So we're free to share away. So let's take a minute. I know you all might have some notes on this already, but we can digest. This is the opposite of what the other page was like. There was like maybe 10 words total in the headline in the subhead. This is.

Dave Gerhardt [00:33:49]:

There's a lot for my brain to try to. Where am I focusing here to anchor in? Right.

Diane Wiredu [00:33:53]:

Yeah, there's a lot going on here. So let's dive in. Break down what I like here. I like the use of eyebrow copy. Right. So that's the little line above here, like the customer feedback analytics platform. This is telling us what you do, who for instantly. It's a really good use of that eyebrow copy so you're not wasting the valuable real estate of your headline.

Diane Wiredu [00:34:11]:

So I like that. The one thing I don't like is that like my B.S. amita is saying, like, number one. Really? Like, according to who? So, yeah, I don't know. Maybe they are the number one. But, you know, unless you are, don't say that. And if you are, assume that the prospect is asking, like, how, why? It may be if you're number one on G2 or something, that might be a better stat to actually pull and use that social proof further on your page. But I think this is a strong hero overall.

Diane Wiredu [00:34:36]:

You know, want the customer insights your team needs.

Dave Gerhardt [00:34:39]:

What do you think about a question as a headline?

Diane Wiredu [00:34:41]:

Yeah, so I have a couple of doubts. Did you want to dive in? I have a couple of doubts about that. You want to take.

Dave Gerhardt [00:34:46]:

Yeah, go ahead.

Lee Reshef [00:34:47]:

I feel like skeptic. Israeli is called again.

Dave Gerhardt [00:34:51]:

Perfect. Perfect.

Lee Reshef [00:34:52]:

No, Israelis are like, you ask me a question, the answer is no.

Dave Gerhardt [00:34:56]:

Yeah.

Diane Wiredu [00:34:57]:

Never ask a question. Like, rule of thumb, guys question.

Dave Gerhardt [00:35:00]:

The answer is no.

Diane Wiredu [00:35:02]:

Never ask a copywriting rule. Right. I can't remember who said this for, but basically a copywriting rule I follow is never ask a question in a headline or a crosshair that could be answered.

Dave Gerhardt [00:35:11]:

No, I've been told that that's like a number one public speaking lesson. Right. If you're standing up in front of an audience, don't ask. We do an Exit Five event. I'm like, how many people are Exit Five members? And like, you know, three people raise their hands in an audience of a thousand. Don't do that.

Diane Wiredu [00:35:25]:

Yeah.

Lee Reshef [00:35:27]:

Of asking how many of you want to be an Exit Five members? Which is like, if the answer is many, then great. But what if it's not? You know, it's like a risky question to ask. And I think that it also asks like one. The customer insights your team needs all in one platform. Then you have a pretty clear USB about gathering the customer insights. But then it ended up being like, is the fact that I have too many platforms is what's bothering me? I'm not sure that's where you tried to take it. Like, Diane, you wanted to comment on that. What do you think is the messaging expert?

Diane Wiredu [00:35:57]:

I think I see a question in the chat. So just to close the loop about the question. So it's not about never asking a question. Questions are really great tactics to use in your copy. It's about not asking a question where it can be a yes or no. Because the goal of copy is resonance. It's agreement. It's drawing people through your messaging and saying yes and drawing people in the moment.

Diane Wiredu [00:36:16]:

You ask a yes or no. If you get a no, you Stop.

Lee Reshef [00:36:19]:

Right.

Diane Wiredu [00:36:19]:

And so, you know, if we want to keep a question, maybe we could rephrase this. It could be, how many times have you done this? Because then I'm thinking, how many? Instead of yes or no. But overall, like, honestly, I think that the hero is pretty strong. Good use of bullet points. It breaks down the info, showcases outcomes pretty clear enough to get the message across. Kind of still builds curiosity. Overall, clear hero, structure, value proposition, outcomes, very formulaic. But I think it works.

Diane Wiredu [00:36:45]:

Maybe we can kind of move down and look at structure as you scroll down.

Lee Reshef [00:36:49]:

I would say also great work on trust indicators. I think these guys went heavy on that and I think it works.

Diane Wiredu [00:36:55]:

Yeah. So hierarchy is really important, like messaging hierarchy with your homepage. Right. And so they're following a formula that works. So it's what is the problem, the pain that our customers and our prospects are facing, and then kind of, how do we solve that? I'm not a huge fan of just putting on the website, like, the problem and the solution. I feel like it's like kind of placeholder copy. Right. Go beyond this and actually like call it out and kind of use linking elements as well.

Diane Wiredu [00:37:23]:

But as a kind of baseline, at least we have that structure there. One thing I'm noticing is that the pages. So the page is very copy heavy. Right. If we keep moving down as well into the kind of product we have, those kind of okay benefits. There's a ton of screenshots, which on the one hand is great because I feel like tech and SaaS companies are catching up to the fact that, like, people want to see the product, but you have to always bear in mind that it has to support the copy and not overwhelm. So, yeah, a lot of copy is not a bad thing. You know, like, use the number of words that you need to get your message across.

Diane Wiredu [00:37:56]:

But I do think never prioritize brevity over clarity. But I do think that the copy needs some editing here. And I think that Shadowmill could be a little bit more ruthless about what are the key things that we need to take away from this homepage? Right. Like there's like four or five bullet points with everything. There's loads of text in the screenshots. So, yeah, I think we definitely, from a design perspective, like, good design brings copy to life and I think we need a bit more white space throughout here and what you guys think.

Dave Gerhardt [00:38:22]:

I do love the trend of more product screenshots. Like, I think showing the product, but it is hard when kind of building on what Diane said, like, it's hard when the screenshots don't actually necessarily always help. Just because they are product screenshots doesn't mean they actually help my brain understand how this product works. Right. It can be this tough challenge of like, how do you show that?

Diane Wiredu [00:38:42]:

Right. And also, you know, what kind of stage of what, like how much brand equity does. Because again, we don't have all of the context here. Like how much do they have? Do I need to see this screenshot immediately? Like, screenshots are great, supporting visuals are great, showing your product is great, definitely. But the same with all social proof is that it needs to support the copy and it needs to actually kind of bring in and add value. So in some of these cases I'm not so sure if it's necessary. But you know, I do really love that like proof CX is a revenue driving function for the business. I really like that kind of messaging.

Diane Wiredu [00:39:15]:

I think, you know, the messaging, it definitely resonates and it gets a bit better throughout the page.

Dave Gerhardt [00:39:20]:

I still think that the social proof is really good in that like maybe this also is just not for us. Right. And so like they're very focused on this role of. It seems like they sell to companies that have this role of someone who owns customer insights and so maybe this level of detail is more important to that Persona.

Lee Reshef [00:39:35]:

I think that's right about this page and I think that's why they went for so many screenshots and proofs from the product. But I think that the funny thing here and where I'm empathic towards that the person who build it, you're trying to give insights about the space and then your product is also about insights. So what you get is just a bunch of screens full of insights. Some of them are screenshots from the product and some of them are insights about the industry and what you're trying to sell. And I think some design work would really help here by bringing more elements that doesn't look like an insight because you're writing insights, you have graph with insights from the product and it's all just a bunch of insights and it's hard to follow through. So to me, dialogue design for sure. Yeah, it's insight.

Diane Wiredu [00:40:17]:

Yeah. I mean if we think back to ample market we saw. Right. You know, we gave some feedback on the copy but their design was awesome. Like stronger design here and branding would really bring this page to life because the copy is fairly strong. But I would love to see some more, a bit more specificity on some of these claims. Like early, you know, Save hours spent on manual analysis. Okay, great.

Diane Wiredu [00:40:35]:

Like, I get the outcome, but let's get more specific. Like what does that actually look like for, for your customers on a day to day basis?

Dave Gerhardt [00:40:41]:

All right, let's go do prime pay. Here is my overview on PrimePay. They sell to HR leaders and business leaders. Their challenge has been it's been tough to nail down messaging, especially as they have two different audiences. So here is the page. Modern HCM software for people centric business. Simplify payroll and hr. Unleash work.

Dave Gerhardt [00:41:01]:

Take a tour, talk to sales.

Diane Wiredu [00:41:04]:

This one makes me want to cry a little bit.

Dave Gerhardt [00:41:07]:

Okay, that's what we're here for. That's what we're here for.

Diane Wiredu [00:41:10]:

Okay. There's a lot to say about this here. So this headline is what I would refer to as like placeholder copy. It kind of reads a little bit like the first draft. We're trying to get the basics down on brainstorming what we do who for, but it shouldn't make it on the page. Like we need to get better and like push ourselves a little bit more with our value proposition. So you were asking earlier, Dave, about copywriting formulas. In theory, this formula can work like it's a good formula product for Persona.

Diane Wiredu [00:41:39]:

But two important things to consider, the product, these two elements need to be super dialed in. So the product or category, it has to be super established and clear. Shouldn't leave any room for doubt. Right. So modern as a qualifier for a software I don't think is strong enough or clear enough. Like, I would hope that all software is modern. I'm not going to hire an ancient software. And then the who for also needs to be super dialed in because you don't want to call out people centric business.

Diane Wiredu [00:42:06]:

Like who is that? What does that, what does that mean?

Dave Gerhardt [00:42:08]:

Or what's the opposite? Is it. If you're not, Are you not like, who's not a people centric business.

Diane Wiredu [00:42:13]:

Right, right, exactly. So if we were talking, okay, I'm CRM for accounting firms or CX teams or like, you know, the chatter mill example, they had this formula, so it worked. But yeah, we definitely kind of want to dial that in a little bit more. And then the H2. I hate the word unleash. I want to remove it from the planet. We've got the beginnings of a value prop here. Right? We've got simplifying payroll and hr.

Diane Wiredu [00:42:37]:

So I've got some more insight. But simplify how? Right? So brevity, like favored over any real value. Like what does unleash work Mean, our HR leaders sat at their desk, are they saying, man, I wish I could have a software that would let me unleash work? No. So if you ask that question, like, I think there's a lot more I'm going to pause because I think I went a bit too hard on the roast there. I don't know.

Lee Reshef [00:42:58]:

I. Yeah, I'm not going to put a super positive spin on it, but I'm just going to say that they mentioned that they're challenged by the two different target audiences. I don't think they're that different if you go to the problem you're trying to solve versus who you're solving it for. So if you drop the need to say a solution for payroll teams or for HR team and just talk about who you are, like a centralized place to handle HR and payments, then both of them are going to care about it. So I think in that case, if you don't have anything smart to say about your audience, just don't say anything about them. Just talk about the solution and what it can do for them.

Diane Wiredu [00:43:33]:

Yeah. And again, it's a start. Right? So the good thing, if we're roasting you and we're going hard, is that you can optimize. There's a lot to improve. I'm just trying to put a positive spin on this. So we have a gif, like a screenshot kind of GIF thing that just, like, zooms in. So GIFs, we're going to use them, like, they have to add value. This doesn't add value.

Diane Wiredu [00:43:53]:

So it's not doing anything there. So I don't think I want it.

Dave Gerhardt [00:43:55]:

To be a video. I want it to be a video.

Diane Wiredu [00:43:57]:

Right. These guys have 16,000 clients.

Dave Gerhardt [00:44:01]:

I know. That's crazy, right?

Diane Wiredu [00:44:02]:

That's huge. Huge trust builder. I don't know. What do you think, Dave?

Dave Gerhardt [00:44:06]:

And this is almost a better headline right here. Look at this one. We make payroll and HR complexity disappear.

Diane Wiredu [00:44:12]:

Right?

Dave Gerhardt [00:44:12]:

Okay, you got my attention.

Lee Reshef [00:44:14]:

No audience problem. Yeah, I like that way better. I also like the second gift way better.

Dave Gerhardt [00:44:19]:

Yeah, this one, this is also, like. This also explains the people centric business thing. It's like, oh, I get it. People centric, meaning, like, you have a business filled with people. Like here we're moving the org chart around. Like, yeah, this is good.

Diane Wiredu [00:44:31]:

Yeah. We've kind of moving kind of into the value prop and who they are here. With that, we make payroll and HR complexity disappear. But the copy is still very we and us focused. I would suggest PrimePay team to go through replace a lot of the we with you like help actually draw out every time we say we like we've packaged experience into this. We've built this platform like draw some of the gain messaging. There's a heavy focus on like the platform features without actually translating that into the capability for the user. So yeah, one thing that I suggest is doing like a so what test.

Diane Wiredu [00:45:06]:

So with every line of copy, asking, review and ask so what and then that helps you kind of draw out. Okay, what does that impact?

Dave Gerhardt [00:45:14]:

Okay, producers are in my ear that we got to wrap up so I'm stopping to share that but keep going and with some not we can give some final insights and knowledge.

Diane Wiredu [00:45:22]:

Yeah, yeah.

Lee Reshef [00:45:23]:

I wanted to build up on what Diane said and say that this test will be great for their list of usps as well. They had like three main value props there but they were very company centric. It was something like it's just fits, it's just right. It's just something. So they were talking about the product instead of talking about what's in it for the user or what's the value. And then I only read the three headlines and didn't read the paragraphs below and now I know nothing.

Diane Wiredu [00:45:49]:

Damn. So we don't have time for anymore. We should have gone faster. We can't do another quick one?

Dave Gerhardt [00:45:54]:

No, it's okay. It's better to end like anytime I'm like doing something with my kids and we're playing catch or playing a game, you gotta end on a good one. End on a good one. End on a good one. We ended on a good one. That was great. I think it's also like there's a lot of things that we could talk about for each website that apply. I think I got a bunch of fundamentals out of you both that apply to any type of site.

Dave Gerhardt [00:46:15]:

So this was great. I have a question for each of you. How do you two stay sharp? Like you know a lot now. How do you not just rely on what you've always done? How do you stay sharp on this topic of messaging, copywriting, homepage.

Lee Reshef [00:46:28]:

I don't trust myself as the decision maker. I come up with an idea and then I go to people on my team that are supposed to be the most skeptic about it. And then I also try to see if they're excited or they're like, yeah, that's pretty good, like cool. That could work. And like if it's not genuinely exciting, then I try to be so like.

Dave Gerhardt [00:46:47]:

Constantly seeking feedback and data.

Lee Reshef [00:46:49]:

Yes.

Diane Wiredu [00:46:50]:

Yeah, that's a really great question. Like, I question. I question. I question everything. Oh, like, disclaimer with everything. You know, I think there's this curve where you know nothing, and then the moment you start to think you know a lot, and then you're like, no, I know nothing again, because you just reach another layer of, like, unpacking. You know, particularly with messaging and copy is. So it's psychology, it's biopsychology is persuasion.

Diane Wiredu [00:47:11]:

Like, it touches so many things. Like, sometimes your copy isn't the problem. It's your positioning or it's the offer or it's the go to market. And so, you know, this was fun, but definitely, like, look at everything else. The words on the page aren't always just the fix, and it can be an indication of, you know, something else.

Dave Gerhardt [00:47:26]:

All right, should we give away a full website redesign right now? Should we do that? Yeah, that sounds cool. Okay, let's do it. Okay, we're going to wrap up. We're going to give away. Well, we're going to announce it. So not only are we going to give away this website redesign right now, but they've actually already done the. No, I'm just kidding.

Diane Wiredu [00:47:43]:

I.

Dave Gerhardt [00:47:43]:

Wait. Imagine you're just going to press one button, and you're going to have this new website available tomorrow. But I think we're going to bring in Eli, who runs no Boring Design, who's the firm. Yes. There he is. Holy smokes. All right, so here's what's cool. We're going to do this.

Dave Gerhardt [00:47:59]:

Eli and his team have a winner. They're going to announce right now. But they did our website redesign, and it's been amazing. It's helped level up our brand. When we started to put together this event, Eli reached out, and he's like, I have a crazy idea for you. And he's that guy. Everybody's got one that when they say they have a crazy idea, you're like, oh, boy. You're like, what could this be? He's like, we're going to fly a blimp over your house.

Dave Gerhardt [00:48:22]:

And. And he's like, we want to give away a redesign to somebody here. So, Eli, quickly explain who you are, what NBD does, and then let's tell them who won this thing. This is cool. Matt loves your setup, by the way. Are those lightsabers?

Eli Rubel [00:48:35]:

They are, in fact, original lightsabers from the set.

Dave Gerhardt [00:48:38]:

Yeah.

Eli Rubel [00:48:38]:

The very first Star Wars. All right, over to you, Amazing Dave. Thank you for having me. I'm super excited to do this, and it's Been fun to listen in on the roasts so far. So. Yeah. Quick overview. I'm Eli Rubel.

Eli Rubel [00:48:50]:

I run the agency No Boring Design and the agency Mattermade No Boring Design. Focuses on website and brand building for iconic companies and high growth startups. And we also do production design. So like monthly retainers so that folks can get all of their design headaches solved with one solution. So that's the high level on us. Dave already mentioned we did the Exit Five rebrand. It was a ton of fun. We've worked with companies as large as Dropbox and Yelp and we're about to announce the RB2B rebrand.

Eli Rubel [00:49:22]:

So do a ton of fun work with a bunch of cool companies and very excited to give this one away.

Dave Gerhardt [00:49:29]:

Drumroll, drumroll.

Eli Rubel [00:49:32]:

Getting into it. So, okay, I've got one big announcement before that. So unfortunately there was a typo on the page. Dave said that it was $60,000 value. We're actually bumping it up to $75,000 value, which includes up to 30 pages of design and dev. So it's even bigger than was on the site. We're excited about it.

Dave Gerhardt [00:49:53]:

Amazing.

Eli Rubel [00:49:54]:

All right, now the drum roll. Do we have an Aaron O'Neill here?

Dave Gerhardt [00:50:02]:

You must be from Aaron Qualtrics. 1010, 1010 10.

Eli Rubel [00:50:12]:

Aaron O'Neill, you are the winner from Qualtrics.

Dave Gerhardt [00:50:16]:

Amazing.

Eli Rubel [00:50:17]:

Which.

Dave Gerhardt [00:50:18]:

That's amazing. There's a couple other. There was an Aaron. There was an errand. They didn't get it.

Eli Rubel [00:50:25]:

Yeah, that's going to be a massive project.

Dave Gerhardt [00:50:27]:

So you're gonna. Danielle messaged me and said that she Dr. She just dropped off, but we. We'll send her a package. That's super exciting. I wish we could bring her up on stage and get the live reaction. Jonathan says he's willing to change his name if you want to switch, but that's amazing. Thank you for doing that.

Dave Gerhardt [00:50:44]:

It's massive.

Eli Rubel [00:50:45]:

Yeah. And one more thing, Dave. So I know there are a bunch of people who applied and we're excited to win. And so Dave and I were chatting earlier and we worked out a special deal. So for the first 10 companies who book a meeting. And there's going to be a link in the chat here in a moment. First 10 companies who book a meeting with us. We're going to give you $20,000 off any full website project that's kicked off before the end of this year.

Eli Rubel [00:51:10]:

So we wanted to make it more accessible for all the folks who are excited about getting their website and brand into a place that they're ecstatic about and so $20,000 off for the first 10 companies that love that.

Dave Gerhardt [00:51:23]:

Amazing. Drop the link. Drop the link. Drop the link. They want the link. Put the link in there. They all say, drop the link. Now Elmo wants the link.

Dave Gerhardt [00:51:31]:

Put the link in there. This is not boring.

Eli Rubel [00:51:35]:

It's like a cash grab booth.

Diane Wiredu [00:51:37]:

Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [00:51:38]:

Okay, there's the link. You can book with them. This is amazing. Thank you for over delivering. I did not fully expect that message today, so that is awesome. By the way, content idea. I know you're big on writing on LinkedIn. You got like 20 messages about like your camera and your setup, what brand of the shirt that you're wearing.

Dave Gerhardt [00:51:53]:

And so I think you should do a post breaking that stuff all down. I think that would be fantastic.

Eli Rubel [00:51:57]:

All right, stay tuned, Stay tuned. Follow me on LinkedIn for the shirt and camera.

Dave Gerhardt [00:52:02]:

Do that. Well, Eli, thank you for popping by. Thank you for making, making this an awesome little add on and giveaway. Thank you for everybody for hanging out. I'm not entirely sure about what's next because I'm more of a. More of an ideas guy myself. I'm not really in the. Not really in the details.

Dave Gerhardt [00:52:19]:

We got product pages up next. I'm excited. Today's been awesome. I'm gonna jump out of here and I'll see you all soon. Eli, great job. Good to see you. Shout out to mbd.

Eli Rubel [00:52:27]:

Likewise.

Dave Gerhardt [00:52:28]:

Shout out to Lee from Fiverr. Diane, that was awesome. All right, we'll see you later. Goodbye. Hey, thanks for listening to this podcast. If you like this episode. You know what? I'm not even going to ask you to subscribe and leave a review because I don't really care about that. I have something better for you.

Dave Gerhardt [00:52:45]:

So we've built the number one private community for B2B marketers at Exit Five. And you can go and check that out. Instead of leaving a rating or review, go check it out right now on our website, exitfive.com. Our mission at Exit Five is to help you grow your career in B2B marketing. And there's no better place to do that than with us at Exit Five. There's nearly 5,000 members now in our community. People are in there posting every day asking questions about things like marketing, planning, ideas, inspiration, asking questions and getting feedback from your peers. Building your own network of marketers who are doing the same thing you are.

Dave Gerhardt [00:53:19]:

So you can have a peer group or maybe just venting a your boss when you need to get in there and get something off your chest. It's 100% free to join for seven days so you can go and check it out risk free and then there's a small annual fee to pay if you want to become a member for the year. Go check it out, learn more exitfiv.com and I will see you over there in the community.

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