#328: The Strategy Behind Canva’s B2B Growth with Emma Robinson and Kristine Segrist

#329 | Dave is joined by Emma Robinson, Head of B2B Marketing at Canva, and Kristine Segrist, Global Head of Consumer Marketing at Canva, to break down how Canva is scaling growth across both enterprise and consumer audiences. They talk about how Canva balances brand-building with pipeline accountability, how they turn bottom-up product adoption into enterprise deals, and why brand investment is a long-term growth lever. Emma and Kristine also share how their team structure, data science investments, and creative bets like the Love Your Work campaign help Canva scale without losing the brand identity that made them famous.

Timestamps

• (00:00) - – Intro
  
• (03:21) - – Canva’s marketing org structure
  
• (06:21) - – Blurring B2B and B2C
  
• (11:21) - – How Canva measures marketing impact
  
• (16:21) - – Turning free users into enterprise deals
  
• (21:21) - – Data science’s role in marketing
  
• (24:21) - – Balancing brand bets with ROI
  
• (30:59) - – Inside the “Love Your Work” campaign
  
• (37:59) - – How Canva executes large campaigns
  
• (41:59) - – Building enterprise credibility and trust
  
• (44:59) - – FedEx case study on brand governance
  
• (48:59) - – Lessons from Google and Meta
  
• (52:59) - – Why creativity is a marketing superpower
  
• (54:59) - – Closing thoughts

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***

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Dave [0:00:00]: You're listening to B2b marketing with me, Dave Gerhardt.

Dave [0:00:17]: Oh, hey everybody.

Dave [0:00:17]: I just wrapped up an awesome conversation with double barrel action out of Cam today.

Dave [0:00:23]: I don't know show did seizure my adults from this conversation, but I just had Kristine.

Dave [0:00:28]: Segrist and Emma Robinson on.

Dave [0:00:30]: They are two of the marketing leaders at the marketing Oriented Cam.

Dave [0:00:34]: And one of them runs the consumer side of the business, one of them runs the B b side of the business.

Dave [0:00:39]: And we we talked about what is it like?

Dave [0:00:41]: Is Canva that do for marketing?

Dave [0:00:42]: What is A company that has, you know, something like three billion in revenue and they have basically, ninety five percent of the world knows what Canva is.

Dave [0:00:50]: What you do from a marketing perspective, we talked about they're out of home campaign.

Dave [0:00:54]: We talked about running their big event, Canva create.

Dave [0:00:57]: We talked about how they structure the team to be set up to perform across all these different roles and personas.

Dave [0:01:04]: Just had a great conversation really enjoyable a little bit.

Dave [0:01:07]: You know, we fast paced in some areas that we slowed down and talked about the Or Canva, where things are going with Ai.

Dave [0:01:13]: Do you like this podcast if you're a b marketing nerd, like we all are here.

Dave [0:01:18]: You're gonna enjoy this episode.

Dave [0:01:19]: So enjoy my conversation with Emma and Kristine from Canva.

Dave [0:01:23]: Alright.

Dave [0:01:24]: Hey, everybody.

Dave [0:01:25]: Excited to do this episode.

Dave [0:01:26]: We got double barrel action coming at you from the team over at Canva.

Dave [0:01:31]: Maybe you've you've heard of Canva.

Dave [0:01:32]: I'm joined by Emma Robinson and Kristine Segrist two marketing leaders that are helping scale one of the Most beloved brands in tech.

Dave [0:01:41]: I mean, Canva makes me feel like I can do things.

Dave [0:01:45]: I don't need to know photoshop to remove the background of my photos.

Dave [0:01:48]: I've done everything from...

Dave [0:01:50]: You know, we use, obviously, we use Canva Exit Five.

Dave [0:01:53]: We run our business on it.

Dave [0:01:54]: I don't know if this is a Gen z thing, but you know that the two Gen z folks on our team.

Dave [0:01:58]: They don't they don't use Google slides anymore.

Dave [0:02:00]: They're making their decks in Canva.

Dave [0:02:01]: That's a noticeable shift.

Dave [0:02:02]: The presentations are happening in in Canada.

Dave [0:02:05]: I hope she hasn't listened to this, but I may I made my daughter a note from the tooth Fairy in Canva.

Dave [0:02:10]: Once.

Emma [0:02:13]: Yeah you you pumped her out.

Emma [0:02:14]: You would do it again.

Dave [0:02:16]: I did.

Dave [0:02:16]: So we got Emma here, Emma leads, the B2b side of marketing at Canva, focus on go to market, customer marketing and growth for the enterprise products, and then Kristine is Vp of consumer marketing, leading a global team across performance, brand and everything in between, what a cool idea to have you both on.

Dave [0:02:32]: I I can't say that I take credit for this.

Dave [0:02:34]: It was...

Dave [0:02:34]: It came in inbound, but, like, Heck x.

Dave [0:02:36]: Excited I to talk to you and, we've had a great chat behind the scenes?

Dave [0:02:40]: Just curious.

Dave [0:02:41]: Like, what is the marketing or we look like at Canva and kinda what brings you both on to get talk to this?

Dave [0:02:46]: Like, why not I just talk to Emma or just talk to Kristine.

Dave [0:02:48]: I'm curious about what does that say about the marketing org at Canva?

Emma [0:02:51]: Am I was gonna laugh when with that double barrel intro.

Emma [0:02:54]: I don't know if you agree with this, But I feel like we are two parts of a whole, actually, in our our working life, whether we're, like, running with passports trying to make a flight together or addressing our teams together So this is very natural for how we operate.

Emma [0:03:09]: And I would say in terms of how our team is structured, we really kind of think about fluidity between how people work and how people live.

Emma [0:03:18]: And, you know, kind of this really strict binary area, like, b to b and B c, we just feel like that's a little bit of an outdated notion that people are constantly moving between different spheres of their life.

Emma [0:03:28]: So it's very natural that when we're building programs or we're planning things together or even working with our teams, it's all about just not having those boundaries knowing that people are experiencing our brand in the world in a way where

Kristine [0:03:43]: they're not, like, oh, part

Emma [0:03:44]: of the org charts sent me this communication.

Emma [0:03:46]: They're just seeing things from Canada.

Emma [0:03:48]: Either we're delivering value in that moment or or not.

Emma [0:03:50]: So we're pretty joined at the hip, I would say.

Emma [0:03:53]: So, great that we're having conversation together.

Kristine [0:03:56]: Yeah.

Kristine [0:03:56]: I would echo that.

Kristine [0:03:57]: I think, we've spent an awful lot of time together, but for good reason because, you know, after you...

Kristine [0:04:01]: Even at the beginning of the day year when we felt the planning process, I think an incredibly important.

Kristine [0:04:05]: Unlock to have everybody in the room and we also have an international leader as well for this sort the three of our, who get in a room, and we all represent parts of the business that are...

Kristine [0:04:16]: You want some different to the audience as we market too.

Kristine [0:04:19]: But the channels I could have done across everybody.

Kristine [0:04:21]: So it is important just to make sure we have that consistency across the channel regardless of the the audience that you're speaking to.

Kristine [0:04:28]: And then I can probably just dive a little bit on the structure.

Kristine [0:04:32]: We have of value backup business unit for there's audience that I mentioned.

Kristine [0:04:35]: Beta being in international.

Kristine [0:04:37]: And then we have core channel the poor.

Kristine [0:04:39]: So across the organization, it's sort of more centers excellence that allow you to kinda get deep into a channel and into providing the right subject matter expertise for that channel but then that sort of ladder into those business outcomes we're trying to drive across the different business unit.

Kristine [0:04:55]: So it's sort of like a very heavy heavily matrix model, which I I feel, like, it a Canva with such a collaborative company that that works pretty well.

Kristine [0:05:03]: And, you know, we offer be camera to do a lot of that briefing and sharing document and strategy and so forth for that help.

Kristine [0:05:09]: But it's a lot of fun to build it, and I think B give us a lot of creative ideas for B2b she can talk shortly.

Kristine [0:05:16]: So, yeah.

Kristine [0:05:17]: That's that look.

Dave [0:05:18]: Well, it's interesting because I...

Dave [0:05:19]: I'm just, like, always it logged into one account, and so I'm not, like, oh, let me let me hop into my purse.

Dave [0:05:23]: Let me let me lock into my, like, consumer can account and and make this.

Dave [0:05:28]: And so is interesting to think about that split Do...

Dave [0:05:31]: So you have B b b international?

Dave [0:05:33]: And, like, is there...

Dave [0:05:34]: I don't even know.

Dave [0:05:35]: There a Cmo at Canva?

Dave [0:05:36]: You y'all all report into one person this is the founder who is it?

Emma [0:05:39]: We do.

Emma [0:05:40]: The amazing Zach is the Cmo across those different areas pulling everything together, and he's directly into our founders Mel cliff.

Emma [0:05:49]: So that's the way we're structured.

Emma [0:05:51]: And even though the company grown in scaled, we still try to work in a really scrappy way.

Emma [0:05:57]: We try to make sure the Org still feels flat.

Emma [0:05:59]: We don't want things to feel highly hierarchical.

Emma [0:06:02]: Like, we're very intentional about that because I've that's some of our best ideas or most interesting ideas come from all over the place, you know, whether it's our experiential team, someone in Pm, they're not just the domain of maybe a small group.

Emma [0:06:18]: So we want that fluidity.

Emma [0:06:19]: And we're really focused on trying to build teams that feel kind of small and empowered, like, little swift boat pods that can just chase after areas that they believe will have impact without a a ton of friction and, you know, kind of whatever it is approvals, running things up a chain.

Emma [0:06:37]: I just think those kind of bureaucratic elements can suck the life out of experimentation and trying things and moving quickly.

Emma [0:06:44]: So I think that's also part of the spirit of how we're trying to structure and Zach definitely sets that home for the team.

Kristine [0:06:51]: Yeah.

Kristine [0:06:51]: I, I know we probably did to add do that I think the Ai had accelerated that process too because know, there's a lot of functionality we can bring in that helps us go already fast, particular, particularly in the area of from performance marketing.

Kristine [0:07:03]: And so that gives us the ability test a bunch of things very quickly, but then find the kind of quality and the high performance people within that.

Kristine [0:07:11]: And then sort of rally around that particular or creative idea.

Kristine [0:07:16]: So so I think there's just something the spirit of the way that you test and learn very quickly in these small spring groups helps to sort of give the rest of the org, like, learnings and leverage on what is actually working and so there's just a lot more insight.

Kristine [0:07:30]: I think we're getting particularly in that sort of show realm Ai.

Emma [0:07:35]: Maybe like a practical example in terms of testing something in a small group and then pulling it across the organization.

Emma [0:07:41]: We have an amazing team in Japan, and they were discussing, hey.

Emma [0:07:46]: We just logged out home homepage.

Emma [0:07:47]: And it's like this amazing surface that millions of people are going to every day.

Emma [0:07:51]: Are we really sweating it?

Emma [0:07:53]: Like, are we thinking about how to make this like, the most visually stunning fun inviting entry point into the product.

Emma [0:07:59]: And there was a million reasons maybe did not do those experiments.

Emma [0:08:02]: It was working well for growth.

Emma [0:08:04]: That was optimized to do certain things, but they did some experimentation in terms of looking at fun partnerships, creator content things that they could bring in showcase to feel truly local for the Japanese market.

Emma [0:08:17]: And then he took some of those learnings and pulled them into other spaces, other markets and found ways to scale that.

Emma [0:08:23]: So I think it's also kind of provoking, sometimes things are working really well to drive certain outcomes.

Emma [0:08:29]: So maybe you don't look at them again or push on them, But I think actually, the constantly trying to beat yourself and not getting into, like, cruise control because something is working well.

Emma [0:08:40]: It's something we're constantly trying to do.

Emma [0:08:41]: Like, hey, we're hitting our numbers.

Emma [0:08:43]: What could we three those numbers?

Emma [0:08:44]: Like, are we happy with that, can we maybe test something that feels a little wild and, just make some space for it.

Emma [0:08:50]: And then having that kind of central connection that emma was talking about to make sure that when we do something that shines that we can tell our friends across the globe, Like, let's see if this if this works in other regions where else can we land this?

Dave [0:09:03]: Alright.

Dave [0:09:03]: And like, especially when you get to the the stage and size that you all...

Dave [0:09:06]: You all are at.

Dave [0:09:06]: Like, that is...

Dave [0:09:07]: That's like, a free money found money opportunity We're, like, there's probably so many eyeballs and so much traffic to that page.

Dave [0:09:14]: But you're not thinking about it day to day, You got so many other things going on, like, this other team surfaces this opportunity.

Dave [0:09:19]: Hey, Let's see what we can do for our world.

Dave [0:09:21]: I wanna go back to planning a little bit.

Dave [0:09:23]: Just because one of the most common questions that we see, like, among Exit Five and our community, and everything is, like, Okay.

Dave [0:09:30]: Marketing is really easy.

Dave [0:09:32]: Well, when you're selling, like, one product to one persona.

Dave [0:09:35]: And so I always think it's...

Dave [0:09:37]: The question is something like hey, We sell this one thing that has, like, a wide use of applications across lots of personas.

Dave [0:09:43]: And so, like, Canva is a perfect example of that.

Dave [0:09:46]: Right?

Dave [0:09:46]: You can do a bunch of different things with it.

Dave [0:09:48]: It can be applicable to almost any persona.

Dave [0:09:51]: And then on top of that, you have these kind of business units that are responsible for different things.

Dave [0:09:55]: You have the consumer side.

Dave [0:09:57]: You have B to b side.

Dave [0:09:58]: You have international side.

Dave [0:09:59]: Any size company.

Dave [0:10:00]: There's always gonna be some internal score keeping counting.

Dave [0:10:04]: Like, how do we know?

Dave [0:10:05]: Oh, that was that was actually a B lead, but that should have gone to Kristine team.

Dave [0:10:10]: That was b, How do we get credit for that?

Dave [0:10:12]: Oh, international expansion, like, I don't really have a question, but I'm I'm sure you all can figure out what I'm getting at?

Dave [0:10:17]: Like, as much as you could tell me, like, how do you track this excessive marketing?

Dave [0:10:21]: How do you plan?

Dave [0:10:22]: Like, you can't just do these things in a silo.

Dave [0:10:24]: Anything that gets done from, like, the Canva brand side is gonna trickle down and and raise each of these other business units and markets.

Dave [0:10:31]: Like, I don't have a question.

Dave [0:10:32]: I'm hoping you all can figure out the question that I want.

Dave [0:10:34]: That...

Dave [0:10:34]: That's the thing that I wanna try understand a little bit?

Dave [0:10:36]: How do you get good at that?

Dave [0:10:37]: What lessons can we share with others?

Kristine [0:10:39]: Oh, it's really easy day.

Kristine [0:10:40]: And you it just all happens.

Kristine [0:10:41]: No.

Kristine [0:10:42]: It is if cold like, doesn't mode.

Kristine [0:10:44]: But, like, within that, I think we actually spend a lot of time.

Kristine [0:10:47]: The founder is really that very goal.

Kristine [0:10:49]: But what they wanna achieve, the week looks start there to be very honest it.

Kristine [0:10:53]: And so then that unpack into...

Kristine [0:10:56]: Well, if these are the goals and these are the outcomes doing a drive, which is typically how do we create awareness, how do we build on the already strong customer base we have with paid offering for how we driving, you know, whether that be Arr, other revenue metrics, and then how are we driving the sign up the trial to enable all that?

Kristine [0:11:15]: And then really, it's kind of the funnel view, and then how you're driving loyalty, contributing view of the product and making sure that people feel, you know, empowered you the functionality, not just one piece of it, like divine, or or maybe video or or web brown might be.

Kristine [0:11:31]: So I think this there's sort of again, like, this matrix idea.

Kristine [0:11:34]: But each of those metrics around, like, performance will be measured incredibly heavily.

Kristine [0:11:40]: So we have a huge data science team that's spend a lot of time working on these things?

Kristine [0:11:45]: And and ultimately, do we get to see, you know, the invite of of all of those metrics than how we're growing them improving them and we'll affect targets around them based on sort the founder goal.

Kristine [0:11:54]: And then on the b of b side, we actually do more of an attribution model?

Kristine [0:11:59]: We're looking at as the sales cycle died, what is that for compelling event that marketing either creates the lead or help to influence the opportunity and then all of the touch points across that funnel journey a measured and tracked, and we have the, algorithms that wait things.

Kristine [0:12:15]: So we are working on attribution.

Kristine [0:12:17]: I...

Kristine [0:12:18]: There's not so much of the...

Kristine [0:12:20]: This is self contributed to of marketing.

Kristine [0:12:23]: I know sometimes an attribution models you sort of get this, like, finger pointing that, you know, would you not do the thing or why are you not responsible for this.

Kristine [0:12:30]: And so we actually have a very tight agreement with sales that we're pretty much driving sort of fifty fifty across the sort of attribution funnel?

Kristine [0:12:37]: And then, of course, that added took all of those different activity that we're running that get measured.

Kristine [0:12:42]: And then it becomes the really product productive conversation.

Kristine [0:12:45]: Like, we have to be accountable on the B2b side for the Roi, how it's spending what is returning from the fed we're making.

Kristine [0:12:53]: And so we need to have that narrative created for our executive our Cfo and our finance teams to be able to continue to invest.

Kristine [0:13:01]: So we definitely have a lot of rigor around that.

Kristine [0:13:04]: It's a very well agreed the line model with our sales team, and they feel very comfortable with it, and then it's really about accountability and how we're driving that across the change to vote in responsible for a total pipeline contribution number, and that sort of then takes a lot of the steam in the heat out of.

Kristine [0:13:22]: Those sort of sometimes unproductive conversations where it comes to.

Kristine [0:13:25]: Well, my all fifth.

Kristine [0:13:26]: No.

Kristine [0:13:27]: Well, we have this conversation and, you know, how those things go.

Emma [0:13:30]: And if that was much more alec when I was say we just arm Wrestle for who's in q it is.

Emma [0:13:33]: So I think that was sort great smelling it for sure.

Kristine [0:13:37]: We were tenfold across the office of, yeah, Only.

Dave [0:13:40]: There must be...

Dave [0:13:40]: Is expansion.

Dave [0:13:41]: I don't even know if that's the right turn, but like, if I'm Dave at Gmail, and I start using Canva, like, my first thought will be able Dave, like, must have a job of some kind?

Dave [0:13:51]: Could we possibly sell him the team plan?

Dave [0:13:53]: Like, is there a lot of the overall goal is, like, get people using Canva?

Dave [0:13:57]: And then on the...

Dave [0:13:58]: And that...

Dave [0:13:58]: That's maybe the consumer side and then the...

Dave [0:14:00]: And I don't know anything about your business of I'm just ripping because it's what I do.

Dave [0:14:02]: I'm a thought leader.

Dave [0:14:03]: But there must be some of that where it's like, okay, then, can we use signals from the product to actually...

Dave [0:14:08]: You know, is there an opportunity to sell these people on the team?

Dave [0:14:11]: Okay, Dave was using Canva by himself for a year.

Dave [0:14:13]: Now he's, like, growing this business And I, oh, shoot.

Dave [0:14:15]: I wanna have my brand style.

Dave [0:14:17]: I wanna...

Dave [0:14:17]: Okay.

Dave [0:14:17]: Now I have a five person team at Exit Five, Like, we should upgrade to that plan?

Dave [0:14:20]: Like, how do those emotions all kinda of got all connected in in some ways

Emma [0:14:24]: I mean, absolutely, You know, get kind of the heritage of the business with more of these self serve models.

Emma [0:14:28]: Right?

Emma [0:14:28]: Kind of funny what you have where you're making this these great tooth fairy outputs and hopefully things that work too by using a subscription or maybe They something for your team where you're all working together maybe in, a, let's say, there's a small business or a group of entrepreneurs working together, And those are self serve products that you can sign up for and, of, of course, are a big part of our consumer led marketing or a P motion.

Emma [0:14:51]: We do get a ton of signal in product of, you know, are there moments that would be appropriate for upsell because someone is, you know, perhaps they want access to more Ai credits.

Emma [0:15:03]: They're doing really cool things with some of our Ai feature.

Emma [0:15:05]: And the way to get more of that would be to convert them from a with huge free user base too from a free user to a subscriber, and then there might be other signals where it'd be valuable to think of migrating someone do teams.

Emma [0:15:18]: But not, you know, not everyone.

Emma [0:15:19]: That will be appropriate for finding those right pockets.

Emma [0:15:22]: And then also, like I mentioned earlier, we find that in ninety five percent of fortune five hundred companies.

Emma [0:15:29]: People are using Camp, they're using it at work for all kinds of use cases.

Emma [0:15:32]: So that's all from that kind of, like, bottoms up demand growth, people realizing that this tool as unlocking outcomes for them.

Emma [0:15:41]: It's helping them to bring their ideas forward in a more fluent way.

Emma [0:15:45]: It's helping them with workflows.

Emma [0:15:46]: So that really creates a nice conversation for us to then maybe have a conversation with the C suite or decision makers to say, hey, we're just observing that, obviously, there's some value here.

Emma [0:15:56]: Is there a way we can structure this to help...

Emma [0:15:59]: Accelerate and unlock more for you at a tops down level.

Emma [0:16:02]: So that's where we really see this coming together.

Emma [0:16:05]: And I think it also comes back to what we're building.

Emma [0:16:08]: We're constantly getting input from our community what they say, what they do both in a context and in a personal context, so it's helping us to build the right products and keep closing that loop.

Kristine [0:16:19]: Yeah.

Kristine [0:16:19]: I would also add for the enterprise specifically, your course their requirements a lot more complicated.

Kristine [0:16:24]: Than, you know, being on a free or even a teams or pro license.

Kristine [0:16:28]: And so there are legitimate things about, you know, how to you stay on brand, how are you kinda retailing a lot of organic usage around un brand content, which is very productive for the enterprise great brands.

Kristine [0:16:41]: You really wanna be able to represent their brand in the post best possible way.

Kristine [0:16:45]: So what we offer on the enterprise side is either a lot more kind of rigor, granular controls and brand that people can feel really compelled to use without having to compromise kind of their creative need.

Kristine [0:16:59]: So that is sort of a way that I think and and the enterprise was really put in place for that because, you know, Cios don't want to have this sort of crazy organic content usage because they're actually become unproductive for brands, so being able to really land brand kits, and then also things like security.

Kristine [0:17:17]: So Though, being able to sign on, control usage usage and views and all of those type things the really important.

Kristine [0:17:23]: And so so sort of like there's different needs for the different pockets.

Kristine [0:17:26]: The folk, across will be these different audiences.

Kristine [0:17:29]: But ultimately, yeah, we we see a lot of products signal that allow us to be able to go market to those audiences with this right value proposition around usage and the features that might be more important to them, and we we do it go do that based on the signal.

Dave [0:17:45]: You mentioned having this data science team before?

Dave [0:17:48]: Is that a cross functional?

Dave [0:17:49]: Like, is that its own team or is that part of the marketing work?

Kristine [0:17:52]: So they are cross functional they fit in.

Kristine [0:17:54]: We allocate them to business units, then we have a a few folks that are working on measurement and brand tracking actually.

Kristine [0:18:00]: A sort of part of, like, research and brand tracking and data science into one measurement team.

Kristine [0:18:06]: And they're responsible for...

Kristine [0:18:08]: I mean, there's a lot of data expenses as you can imagine across all of of Camp, but we have so many signals that we just have in marketing.

Kristine [0:18:14]: So it's really about that team being able to find those things you just describe.

Kristine [0:18:20]: Like, how to use sort of deep patterns of usage that might show that actually, our, you know, a whiteboard feature is really growing and people are reading...

Kristine [0:18:27]: There's a lot of good repeat usage of it but, like, go more market that more and things that would have just allow us to be able to influence our content strategy and then the right sort of messaging that we wanna lean into.

Emma [0:18:40]: And the idea of, like, the next best action.

Emma [0:18:43]: So someone is working with certain products, making certain things, driving certain outcomes, what's the next best thing for us to share with them to help unlock more value from Canva.

Emma [0:18:53]: Because as you mentioned, you can do a lot of things with Canva.

Emma [0:18:55]: But I think the beauty of it is it's a place they can really kind of enable the end to end what you're trying to do, but someone may have a a lot of love for the product, but their usage might be more shallow like their knowledge of what they can do.

Emma [0:19:07]: So, like, how you bring them on that adjacent journey of, like...

Emma [0:19:10]: You're crushing it with these presentations and you're having a lot of great outcomes, maybe the next adjacent way for us to bring more value to you could be thinking about how you might bring, you know, documents or video creation into that.

Emma [0:19:22]: And that's There's a lot of science behind, like, how do we sort of open that value out for people.

Dave [0:19:27]: A part of the reason I asked that the data science question was just like, a lot of times in marketing, we...

Dave [0:19:31]: And I wrote about this the other day.

Dave [0:19:33]: Was like, your job in marketing is to be great at marketing, not to be the Cfo.

Dave [0:19:36]: And you have a business partner who's in finance and it's important to understand finance.

Dave [0:19:41]: I've not people when I write this some Linkedin people turn this into, like, he doesn't care about measurement.

Dave [0:19:45]: And he just guy know...

Dave [0:19:46]: It's more just like, is your job to be the marketer or the Cfo?

Dave [0:19:49]: Like, you...

Dave [0:19:50]: At any company that grows a certain stage.

Dave [0:19:52]: You you have, ideally, you have business partners, and you have other smart people inside of the Org.

Dave [0:19:57]: And so this is a good example.

Dave [0:19:58]: It's like, obviously, Canva grew to a certain level, and it was like, hey, We could do better work if we could better measure this stuff.

Dave [0:20:04]: We need more than just like, whatever we can track in Google Analytics or whatever the heck enterprise thing you you all use.

Dave [0:20:10]: And so let's let's build out a data science team to better enable our marketing team and my guess is you can do better marketing because you have partners that are experts and working in data science.

Dave [0:20:20]: So, like, Emma and Kristine aren't spending ninety percent of their day trying to, like, comb through data to make decisions, but you have a partner that can help you make decisions.

Dave [0:20:29]: So then you can go and let's go do this...

Dave [0:20:31]: Let's go create this, like, love your work campaign.

Dave [0:20:33]: Let's go spend time on the things that matter as opposed to, like, you trying to be the data scientist for this.

Emma [0:20:40]: Yeah.

Emma [0:20:40]: Totally.

Emma [0:20:40]: And I think that's kinda a nice spicy topic about being a great marketer and a Cfo, Like, what is kind of your...

Emma [0:20:46]: Your role as a marketer.

Emma [0:20:48]: I mean, I think it's about working with your data team in the right way to be empowered by that information, but not limited.

Emma [0:20:55]: Because I think sometimes

Kristine [0:20:56]: when you've

Emma [0:20:57]: a lot of information, you can start just doing kind of thinking an incremental or doing a lot of like, local optimization.

Emma [0:21:02]: And I think sometimes you still have to swing for the fences and bring in informed judgment and have conviction around creativity and a big idea that you just can't have full, like, measurement sure of what it's going to deliver because you're trying something me for the first time.

Emma [0:21:17]: So it's really the balance of...

Emma [0:21:19]: I think it's important that marketing is seen as a driver of the business not a cost center.

Emma [0:21:22]: We all want that.

Emma [0:21:23]: And we're we're we're here to help our communities flourish, help our businesses grow and impact more people positively.

Emma [0:21:28]: But I I think it's just using the data as a way to make you smarter, not a way to make you play smaller.

Emma [0:21:35]: If that makes sense.

Emma [0:21:36]: Maybe one example I'd share, we do a flagship event every year called Canva Create.

Emma [0:21:41]: We hosted in La for about five thousand folks.

Emma [0:21:45]: And it's really about one, you know, setting the narrative about how we can look to reshape work and empower people to bring their ideas to life.

Emma [0:21:53]: It's also just a very fun joyful confetti festival where we you know, have musical numbers where we bring our community in to do everything from printing Star Wars t shirts to playing in ball pits.

Emma [0:22:07]: I mean, it's really like our brand personified.

Emma [0:22:09]: And there are things in that investment that maybe on paper when we're first pitching this idea.

Emma [0:22:15]: Does doesn't math, will it makes sense?

Emma [0:22:17]: But we a lot of conviction around the power of having this tangible experience with the brand and having it brought to life.

Emma [0:22:24]: And then it's bringing in all the great intelligence and, you know, great marketers like, Emma to say, okay.

Emma [0:22:30]: Like, we have this great flagship moment.

Emma [0:22:32]: How are we gonna make that work for enterprise audiences as we care about.

Emma [0:22:35]: Let's build a special track for them.

Emma [0:22:36]: How we gonna make this work for teachers that we care about educators who are using Canva to classroom.

Emma [0:22:41]: How can we use this as a springboard for our creator community.

Emma [0:22:44]: So it just becomes this kind of like, center of gravity and that we can make work really hard for us, but it is about making space for that creativity and big swings as a brand and kind of living our purpose in a way that maybe wouldn't make sense of a spreadsheet, but we think allows us to bring that sense of creativity forward to the people were sc.

Dave [0:23:03]: Good lesson.

Dave [0:23:04]: This is, like, just because we have this fancy, expensive data science team don't get it twisted.

Dave [0:23:09]: Like, the great stuff in marketing still comes from, like, taking chances and being creative and doing the stuff that's harder to measure.

Emma [0:23:15]: Yeah.

Emma [0:23:15]: And I shared science team imagine just to give them props are creative and fun and adventurous.

Emma [0:23:19]: So they're, like, the right left frame right frame.

Emma [0:23:21]: So we're so so lucky to have them.

Kristine [0:23:24]: Yeah.

Kristine [0:23:24]: Over.

Kristine [0:23:24]: No.

Kristine [0:23:25]: I...

Kristine [0:23:26]: You know, I would just add, you know, there's always gonna be a narrative, and I think there's also to the Cfo around investment, and, of course, everybody wants for your right return, the right math, model or these things.

Kristine [0:23:36]: And it helps as we go, you know, sprint towards, no, have pretty been in that rig own place in terms of the sort of projection of whether this is going.

Kristine [0:23:43]: You need a lot of this to sort of that the foundation.

Kristine [0:23:47]: But there's a higher purpose brand piece that is around really building long term brand equity for Canva that is a philosophy.

Kristine [0:23:55]: And if you subscribe and believe and I founder that they do absolutely passionately about it.

Kristine [0:24:01]: Then that really does set the company up to have the rise about due balance between, like, the long term growth and, you know, doing the fun and friendly una camera staff and brand work with also very tight measurements around the types of things we're try to drive in then outcome they mentioned and around the goal.

Kristine [0:24:21]: So if I think he's the best possible model or do you have to balance the boat?

Kristine [0:24:25]: And I fully appreciate not every company has the same philosophy around brand and brand investment, but we're very lucky that.

Kristine [0:24:33]: That really does help us to find those new eyeballs and new audiences for us to kind of, like, build long term health on.

Kristine [0:24:40]: So, yeah.

Kristine [0:24:41]: We'd like to have that.

Kristine [0:24:43]: But our data science do keep our accountable to this spend.

Kristine [0:24:46]: At least they're doing B2b.

Emma [0:24:51]: That's a good.

Emma [0:24:51]: I go way to frame it And emma It's kind of...

Emma [0:24:53]: We believe our investment in brand is an investment in growth.

Kristine [0:24:57]: Yeah.

Kristine [0:24:57]: So.

Emma [0:24:58]: You're playing to, obviously, what are we trying to deliver this quarter this half, but you can't lose sight of the big picture and where we're going and how we're building equity for the long term.

Kristine [0:25:08]: Yeah.

Kristine [0:25:08]: And I think sometimes the way that, but actually things been more practical example, we we just ran a huge awareness campaign, love your work, which you my understand some of the ads We had a lot of at home and digital.

Kristine [0:25:19]: But when we're driving those those assets out into the market, where I be pulling people through to landing pages, which do have more of a B2b called action where they're buying up for demo and signing up for contact fell alarm.

Kristine [0:25:32]: So actually, you find you have this really nice blend between the grand awareness and then sort of, like, brand demand gen, which can come through.

Kristine [0:25:40]: And so you do actually see that you can solve for both in that regard.

Kristine [0:25:44]: And then the way that we look at it is that brand is the investment in league the future.

Kristine [0:25:49]: Like, it's a how you protect the base and for future sake, and that is a very easy kind of mental model for us to prove when we start to subtract these thing and then build that narrative for the Cfo investment around it.

Dave [0:26:03]: Okay.

Dave [0:26:03]: Since you mentioned this.

Dave [0:26:04]: Love your work.

Dave [0:26:05]: Obviously, massive campaign that you all did.

Dave [0:26:08]: And I wanted to just pull this up brook.

Dave [0:26:11]: We had this Okay.

Dave [0:26:12]: Canva has two hundred forty million active users in a hundred ninety countries.

Dave [0:26:16]: There are three hundred and seventy six designs created every second in over three billion in revenue.

Dave [0:26:22]: Okay.

Dave [0:26:23]: So that's just setting the stage for what Canva is.

Dave [0:26:26]: Then then you do this massive campaign.

Dave [0:26:27]: Most of us listening this podcast have never spent this level of money.

Dave [0:26:31]: Have never done this level of advertising.

Dave [0:26:33]: I've been in marketing for a long time.

Dave [0:26:35]: I still go to the airport, and I see a huge, you know, Cisco billboard and I'm, like, I wonder how they know if that's working or not.

Kristine [0:26:42]: Yeah.

Kristine [0:26:42]: Mh.

Dave [0:26:42]: So let's go inside this love your work campaign from a from a strategy and like, how do you know if this worked?

Dave [0:26:48]: Trying to be broad and ask you kind of, like, a a basic level question because I'm I'm curious to how we can teach our audience for how y'all all think about something like that internally.

Emma [0:26:57]: It's a great question.

Emma [0:26:58]: I think what's interesting about I love your work, and I will...

Emma [0:27:01]: I will also caveat you up because we believe in being truly local.

Emma [0:27:03]: This like, you know, our Us strategy.

Emma [0:27:05]: We have different things to unlock growth in different markets where maybe awareness is low or consideration is low.

Emma [0:27:11]: The Us problem we're trying to solve is that Canva is well known, well loved.

Emma [0:27:17]: Like but sometimes the knowledge of Canva can be shallow.

Emma [0:27:20]: And people may feel great flow the ability to achieve goals in certain pockets of their life that...

Emma [0:27:28]: And, you know, sometimes, it might be like, I made an amazing menu for a dinner part.

Emma [0:27:31]: Like, this has been a great for my kids at school, but helping to pull across that actually cam was a an amazing tool for work.

Emma [0:27:39]: It will unlock that same sense of...

Dave [0:27:42]: So it starts with something like this.

Dave [0:27:43]: It is not, like, hey.

Dave [0:27:44]: We wanna grow sales, you know, six percent in the Us.

Dave [0:27:47]: It's, like, hey, strategically, we've have a lot of people that use our product, but we don't feel like they know all the features of it.

Dave [0:27:54]: Let's let's try this, like, mass media campaign to show all the things you can do with Canva, but that's kind of

Emma [0:27:59]: like stuff higher order.

Emma [0:28:01]: It starts more strategically, like, what's the unlock in this market.

Emma [0:28:04]: And really, this idea that we talk to our community all the time.

Emma [0:28:09]: We're getting insights directly from them, and we know people experience this sense of feeling, you know, stuck at work or not having the tools that are intuitive enough for them to use to take whatever ideas in their head and present it and package in a way that will literally cut through and help you to succeed at work increasingly, we're seeing the marketplace.

Emma [0:28:30]: At work as more visual.

Emma [0:28:32]: We just did a piece of research ninety two percent of employers expect their teams to be reasonably adept at being able to communicate visually.

Emma [0:28:43]: But say you're an Hr or you work in sales, like, that may not be your core competence.

Emma [0:28:47]: You're not a designer.

Emma [0:28:48]: But everyone should not feel stuck or blocked by the inability to present their ideas.

Emma [0:28:54]: They're thinking in a way that will feel powerful.

Emma [0:28:56]: And get attention.

Emma [0:28:58]: So that's kind of this highest order insight sense of getting people on stuck.

Emma [0:29:02]: And then we try to look at, like, what's a broad entry point for people.

Emma [0:29:05]: In this particular campaign, we focused on presentations and kind of a tongue and cheek idea of, like, presentation trauma, bad presentations.

Emma [0:29:13]: We've endured them.

Emma [0:29:15]: We've probably given them.

Emma [0:29:16]: And this sense of Canva is they're not you, Dave, Not, but, you know, the the rest of us, unfortunately.

Emma [0:29:22]: So, you know, this idea that Canva is going to help you kind of move past that and be able to be effective communicator a visual communicator, someone who can land their ideas, and that was kind of a broad idea of showing a powerful use case in the workplace that a lot of people can relate to.

Emma [0:29:38]: And then were able to bring its to life with storytelling humor, an Lorraine...

Emma [0:29:41]: The Great Lorraine bro was our our therapist, at which, you know, she's played so effectively in the past on shows like Sop and brought that really great credibility.

Emma [0:29:50]: So that's kind of our big campaign.

Emma [0:29:52]: Is this idea that you can love your work and that you can feel that sense of flow on lease unlock empowerment at work.

Emma [0:29:59]: And that becomes this broad sense and how we know it's working is we're actually measuring that it's shifting people's perception around considering Canva as a powerful tool for work.

Emma [0:30:09]: And we're measuring the full funnel activities through in terms of, is it also helping us to increase now?

Emma [0:30:18]: Is it also helping us to increase incremental revenue on the self serve side?

Emma [0:30:23]: And we're doing that with, you know, a combination of whether it's media mix models or looking at experiments to measure incremental mortality, whether they're geographically based or, you know, conversion lift looking at things like attribution.

Emma [0:30:35]: So this kind of suite of measurements.

Emma [0:30:36]: Pull that together.

Dave [0:30:38]: How do you look at something like, perception?

Emma [0:30:40]: We would work with brand tracking as Emma was mentioned earlier, we would have health measures to be able to survey folks in a substantial way, and then we would connect it through behaviors, so the perception shifting and then it's the behavior shifting and a way that's driving our goals.

Emma [0:30:53]: And then it past it's Emma, the campaign like that creates a springboard for us to then say, well, what are the targeted things we wanna do with enterprise customers.

Emma [0:31:02]: That can be more tailored to micro audiences, whether it's sales or Hr, C suite, etcetera, Cios to then do things like account based marketing or field marketing events or looking at our life cycle and email communication, all these different levers to help land this fraud campaign that helps to make physician Canva credible unlock for you in the workplace and then thread that through into our B motions.

Dave [0:31:30]: How do you decide a campaign like this?

Dave [0:31:31]: Is it a a year long thing?

Dave [0:31:33]: Is it three months Is it six months?

Dave [0:31:34]: Like, how do you time box this?

Dave [0:31:36]: How do you decide what should be in it?

Dave [0:31:38]: Like, you're gonna do...

Dave [0:31:39]: I I saw the ads on on Tv streaming?

Dave [0:31:43]: How do you decide what levels down the campaign is gonna have?

Dave [0:31:47]: You're gonna have, you know, out of home?

Dave [0:31:48]: You're gonna have influencers?

Dave [0:31:50]: Like, how do you make all those decisions and my fifteenth question on this topic and then you all can choose the answer?

Dave [0:31:55]: And then maybe talk a little bit about just the creative process because I get overwhelmed of even like, spending money at a smaller scale at another company it's like, well, the Ceos has gotta be okay with this.

Dave [0:32:06]: And this...

Dave [0:32:06]: How do you not play the dance of, like, there's gonna be people inside the company who don't love it, but you need to commit and ship it and then prove that.

Dave [0:32:13]: You're never gonna create something and investment everyone in the.

Dave [0:32:16]: This is amazing.

Dave [0:32:17]: They're like, well, no.

Dave [0:32:17]: We should have done this way.

Dave [0:32:18]: So that's the the messy part of the creative process.

Emma [0:32:22]: Well, everyone loves it.

Emma [0:32:23]: I'm just kidding.

Kristine [0:32:25]: Obviously right

Emma [0:32:26]: there.

Emma [0:32:26]: I'm never run right.

Emma [0:32:29]: You wanna build on it first, And maybe I'll take a little bit on the media in the company.

Kristine [0:32:33]: Absolutely.

Kristine [0:32:33]: I mean, look, I think, yeah know, ultimately the the point I made about this philosophy.

Kristine [0:32:36]: I think holds true across our, you know, certainly I found it, but then also come through the executive leadership team.

Kristine [0:32:42]: So in general, they think, you know, you have to prove the value of them in the right placement.

Kristine [0:32:47]: But they subscribe to this idea that it actually put great creative into the market and be differentiated.

Kristine [0:32:53]: We'll actually get off the good return in some of the the the that we've mentioned around final.

Kristine [0:32:58]: And that met you and all the rest of it.

Kristine [0:33:00]: But I think to just sort of go back.

Kristine [0:33:02]: This is the nice thing about having a be a T b2b team together because you start this process together and you work through it together.

Kristine [0:33:10]: In more of those sprint teams that we mentioned.

Kristine [0:33:13]: So we have and and perhaps to the creative team, they run these things incredibly tightly.

Kristine [0:33:18]: It's like easy and five idea is the expected strategy.

Kristine [0:33:22]: And then you have opportunity to be able to input into that process.

Kristine [0:33:26]: In a very early stage.

Kristine [0:33:28]: And then once to get the idea to that point, then the creative process can kind of unveil itself, and they they go through all the steps they need to do in terms of the production element.

Kristine [0:33:37]: And then at the matter of checks the balances around the credit when it comes back.

Kristine [0:33:41]: But that early idea idea that early planning strategy work is always done across the company, like, a across b Cbd and even international would see that too.

Kristine [0:33:52]: So so if you, that really helps a sort of planning point of view.

Kristine [0:33:56]: And then, and then the way and channel makes plays out is about the strategy we breathe in, media be you then look at ways for be can hit our goal and they are very tangible goals for the most part.

Kristine [0:34:09]: And so then they build the right sort of that of media planning for us that we done back into with all of the creative asset.

Kristine [0:34:16]: So, I mean, we...

Kristine [0:34:17]: You know what I mentioned earlier, that love your work.

Kristine [0:34:20]: Has the pull through element into a lead gen platform like the legion element is in, well, you've seen the great out of home.

Kristine [0:34:27]: Here's the landing page content, and here's the next action we'd like you to take to sort of explore him more.

Kristine [0:34:33]: And how you can find that, Being able to, continue to change that perception.

Kristine [0:34:37]: And then it's about the customer proof.

Kristine [0:34:39]: So we have a lot of enterprise customers that if they are, but be starting the journey and seeing something like an out of home ad, how do you find that sort of drew line into an experience that will help them, but also prove it with customers.

Kristine [0:34:52]: So we have companies like Fedex and Doc who are doing a lot of really, you able to empower everyone's to create but also be able to do it on brand, the these that of have, like, this nice aviation part and the scale comes in in the way that you create your content.

Kristine [0:35:08]: So it's got, like, a really nice line, and we can actually prove that using their incredible measurement change to be able to pay the impact we're having for of top funnel right away through it.

Kristine [0:35:19]: Got.

Dave [0:35:20]: It's interesting that...

Dave [0:35:20]: So on the enterprise stuff, and I've always kinda wondered this.

Dave [0:35:22]: Is there is there also some level of, like, being and feeling legitimate to your top customers like, if you're an enterprise customer and you're using Canva, and you're traveling for work and there's a massive billboard at Jfk for Canva, You're like, oh, that company not gonna go out of business tomorrow.

Dave [0:35:38]: Like, feels legit.

Dave [0:35:40]: Like, I I remember for a couple, maybe a year or so ago getting a subscription to ant philanthropic and, you know, starting to really, like Claude.

Dave [0:35:46]: And I thought It was, like super cool because everyone was using chat Eb, and I'm I'm using claude, You know, now everybody is.

Dave [0:35:51]: Right?

Dave [0:35:52]: And there was a map billboard for it at at the Logan airport in in Boston, and I remember thinking like, oh alright.

Dave [0:35:58]: This thing's legit.

Dave [0:35:59]: Like, there's some perception to there.

Dave [0:36:01]: And I've I've always wondered, like, if that's a also part of, like, an enterprise marketing strategy.

Dave [0:36:06]: It's like, being legit to customers in in some ways?

Dave [0:36:09]: Is that is that my silly belief or is there some truth to that?

Kristine [0:36:12]: Yeah.

Kristine [0:36:12]: No.

Kristine [0:36:12]: I...

Kristine [0:36:12]: I mean I think there's definitely truth that.

Kristine [0:36:14]: I I would say on our strategy with more around how you change protection that canvas not only for consumers and for knowledge workers, but also for know, everybody up to demo level and in organizations or.

Kristine [0:36:25]: So you have to kind of, like, allow us to or all this part of that, We try to allow people to see the robustness.

Kristine [0:36:32]: The fact that we have a lot of enterprise customers, you know, you can fortune you five hundred company.

Kristine [0:36:37]: You So there's an element of taking people on that journey.

Kristine [0:36:40]: But in terms of seeing just out of home, like, it the purpose is read.

Kristine [0:36:44]: Is a creative awareness around that perception change, and that is sort good strategy.

Kristine [0:36:48]: It's it's it's, you know, of course, fundamental term show that we're in market.

Kristine [0:36:52]: In different channels of showing up in different places.

Kristine [0:36:55]: But it's more about mapping to the journey that they go on, which is that sort of research journey that sometimes stop with then being able to see an ad in the in in an airport when they're traveling And there's are many other things that we would it start just be out at home.

Kristine [0:37:09]: I think, you know, when we look at things like a awareness we're looking at P and calm before looking at, you know, the relationship we have with, although it's, like forrest and got.

Kristine [0:37:17]: I mean, these things are incredibly important as to going to the enterprise.

Kristine [0:37:20]: And so it's far more than just sort of that, like, awareness piece to three how do you go drive credibility as a total a outcome in a market where you have skepticism in the around consumer brand.

Kristine [0:37:33]: So it's trying to get ahead of that that we try to.

Emma [0:37:36]: I mean, the space is in places where we are, the point of like, know, what's the logic in choosing the channels and choosing the places.

Emma [0:37:42]: It is about credibility, But I think credibility is connecting.

Emma [0:37:47]: With the people we're trying to speak to, and we internally call them knowledge workers, which is just this idea of your working and you're trying to drive outcomes.

Emma [0:37:58]: So it's kind of a broad lens that can include lots of different professions.

Emma [0:38:02]: But also, like, what are we saying to them?

Emma [0:38:06]: So you mentioned Fedex earlier, as an example, Emma, you know, what's the story there?

Emma [0:38:11]: If you are a decision maker at a company.

Emma [0:38:13]: They're in fourteen hundred.

Emma [0:38:15]: Teams in forty different markets.

Emma [0:38:17]: And everybody on the ground has to produce assets.

Emma [0:38:21]: And if you don't have some kind of central brand kit or governance, like, that can get pretty out of control quickly in terms of making sure that everybody can produce content scale, but also make sure that you're reinforcing the brand and having high integrity for the brand.

Emma [0:38:35]: So what's the takeaway there would be like, hey, this brand team?

Emma [0:38:40]: Maybe a central brand team of a few mighty folks.

Emma [0:38:42]: They can't govern that.

Emma [0:38:43]: That's too much scale.

Emma [0:38:44]: So by putting Canada people's hands, you've just reduced...

Emma [0:38:47]: I think that brand team, it was like, seventy seven percent reduction in brand reviews because people could just run because they had, like, the right guard rails, the right governance the right tools.

Emma [0:38:56]: So it's about seeing that out of home when you're walking through the airport day, but also, like, why do I care?

Emma [0:39:01]: I care because this is gonna reduce time for my team?

Emma [0:39:04]: I care because it's gonna drive efficiency.

Emma [0:39:06]: So what is that kind of, like, ding ding ding moment for a decision maker?

Emma [0:39:10]: At a company to look at Canva different and understand that there can be a different type of value that actually will matter in their organization.

Emma [0:39:18]: So it's it's those two things coming together.

Kristine [0:39:21]: And I think the last piece of it who...

Kristine [0:39:22]: You member memorabilia.

Kristine [0:39:23]: I mean, you, you know, you have home we because be want you'll credit it to nine and to, you know, cut through the fee of the one zero one right here in Bay area.

Kristine [0:39:31]: So my drive to work in the best though it's full of Ai add, the whole way out the tech check market.

Kristine [0:39:37]: And, you know, you have find a message that's gonna connect your audience that stands out from those messages as well, and and just kind of find the way to be it, you know, maybe a little bit of humorous, maybe human more human, but I think we're constantly trying to push the be creative on those things because that is the thing that, you know, will compel people and compel them to sort of go and investigate your brand.

Kristine [0:40:00]: And and our brand is very true on empowerment, it's about, you know, the levi, like, having a bit of fun with work and the map to being really boring, It could be very feel consumer, but also be very robust in the enterprise.

Kristine [0:40:14]: So there's a lot of those things we're trying to hit when we actually finalized creative, but one of them is is definitely to sort of give you a little bit of a to a smile and this work on or your driving and your commute wherever you are.

Kristine [0:40:26]: And then just be memorable, like, people will have to connect to the Camera magic and that's the intention of those apps too.

Dave [0:40:32]: I guess we have to try to do quick answers to these.

Dave [0:40:34]: So so I, a couple things I wanna get at.

Dave [0:40:36]: Who's responsible for the Ari at home collaboration?

Emma [0:40:40]: That's our team.

Emma [0:40:40]: He...

Emma [0:40:41]: Did you see it?

Emma [0:40:41]: I love that?

Dave [0:40:43]: He's one of my favorite creators, and I thought I was, like, the only one, and I'm, like, man, This guy's amazing.

Dave [0:40:49]: I'm totally gonna do something with them, Like, I bet we could.

Dave [0:40:52]: You know, sometimes it even though he he's millions of views on Youtube.

Dave [0:40:55]: And I'm like, Damn, I go and I see.

Dave [0:40:57]: He's got a Canva Adam.

Dave [0:40:58]: Like, I have that kind of budget.

Dave [0:40:59]: But this is the stuff that I love.

Dave [0:41:02]: It's like, sure.

Dave [0:41:02]: You can do the big billboard stuff.

Dave [0:41:03]: But...

Dave [0:41:04]: And so people wanna...

Dave [0:41:04]: Listen, there's Guy, Ari at home.

Dave [0:41:06]: He walks around New york City with this keyboard, and he makes beats live on the street and he gets wrappers.

Dave [0:41:11]: It's just this amazing organic stuff.

Dave [0:41:13]: And somehow he made a beat with Canva sheets and then some guy freestyle over that.

Dave [0:41:18]: Well, yeah.

Dave [0:41:19]: Is incredible.

Dave [0:41:19]: So I've I've mad at you all for that, but I respect the game, that is a great.

Dave [0:41:23]: It's a great play.

Dave [0:41:24]: That's the stuff that I love.

Dave [0:41:25]: Like, it's not, yeah.

Dave [0:41:26]: The billboard stuff is cool, but finding these kind more niche creators and doing a stuff on the street is great.

Dave [0:41:31]: You each have backgrounds working, Emma, you worked at Google, Kristine, you worked at Meta, Just curious to how...

Dave [0:41:39]: Maybe if you could each talk about, like, one or two marketing lessons that you both worked there, you know, not for just like a year.

Dave [0:41:45]: They were a portion...

Dave [0:41:46]: Big portion of your life.

Dave [0:41:47]: Curious to how that has shaped your philosophy and how you do marketing today.

Dave [0:41:51]: I think for both of you, my guess is that was a huge part of your your marketing career, arc.

Dave [0:41:56]: And so maybe Emma mo will go go to you first?

Dave [0:41:58]: What one or two lessons you took from there and how you do marketing or think about marketing and business strategy today?

Kristine [0:42:03]: Yeah.

Kristine [0:42:03]: Yeah.

Kristine [0:42:03]: Well, like, I mean, as you know, the ring to have have been at Google or the Cmo for Gosh.

Kristine [0:42:09]: I think she may have been there close to twenty years now.

Kristine [0:42:12]: But she started with a very, very simple thing, which was about being able to know your product, know the magic of the product connected to the user.

Kristine [0:42:21]: And that's the marketing lesson and, like, it's very formulaic.

Kristine [0:42:24]: And and actually, it's so foundational at those them more, but so many people miss it as they're going through their campaign creation.

Kristine [0:42:31]: So I'm constantly thinking about where that we have the leadership, have really great content assets.

Kristine [0:42:37]: But if you're not ringing through the product magic, if you're not explaining that and how it trends bake into how this can help you, then that's gonna be a myth on everyone's part.

Kristine [0:42:48]: So I I love that lesson from her, and it's it holds true for most most folks at Google obviously this such a foundational way that they go to market.

Kristine [0:42:56]: And then look I think the other thing I would, I've learned from my time at Google where.

Kristine [0:43:00]: We were also doing this sort of enterprise transition, which is our Google cloud.

Kristine [0:43:04]: Is that it's not something that's dia overnight.

Kristine [0:43:07]: And, you know, it's not like you can go from a p company to Fl very, very quickly, like, it is a multi page, multi stack, multi year, Journey.

Kristine [0:43:16]: And someday some months and quarters, it might be, you know, you might be huge uplift and some, you may not be as much of a growth, and that's okay because this is, you know, I know, allergy it's a Marathon another sprint.

Kristine [0:43:29]: But it, you know, it truly is and such reminding the people that maybe haven't seen that they're expecting to see the silver dollar approach is that actually we patience some time and, like, the right strategy, the right executions you'll get there, but it is something that builds like, changing perception and it's something that you build over a period of month and years.

Dave [0:43:48]: It's great.

Dave [0:43:48]: I'm down for any lesson that's timeless that it always gonna be around I love that.

Dave [0:43:52]: Kristine what about you.

Emma [0:43:54]: Yeah.

Emma [0:43:54]: I'm loving those lessons Emma, especially if it's staying the course.

Emma [0:43:57]: Right?

Emma [0:43:57]: I would say two things.

Emma [0:43:59]: One is really...

Emma [0:44:00]: This has been a theme throughout this discussion, but being very anchored in your community and who you're serving and never failing to use that as a true north.

Emma [0:44:07]: When I was...

Emma [0:44:09]: For example, some the best products that meta has launched has been by observing what is happening organically and how can we build products and serve those needs.

Emma [0:44:18]: An example I had share is Facebook marketplace, which I think is just a killer product.

Emma [0:44:22]: That came from serving the fact that people on Facebook were building by sell group.

Emma [0:44:27]: All the time.

Emma [0:44:28]: They were doing that naturally within groups, but didn't have sort of a structured way to to do that until Facebook marketplace launched.

Emma [0:44:35]: But that idea ema directly from the community, not from some kind of ivory tower brainstorm happening in Men low Park.

Emma [0:44:43]: And I think it's very similar to Canva, how we've moved into enterprise.

Emma [0:44:46]: That's because that's where our customers were going.

Emma [0:44:48]: That's where our community was going.

Emma [0:44:49]: They were demonstrating they had this need.

Emma [0:44:52]: So just using your community as your North star and your source of inspiration and constantly close the loop with them, will never steer you wrong.

Emma [0:45:00]: And the other thing I would note is creativity is a superpower.

Emma [0:45:03]: It is...

Emma [0:45:03]: And I think if you...

Emma [0:45:04]: It's very important to be high integrity with your data and your measurement, your credibility and Roi that's all very important.

Emma [0:45:10]: But you mentioned that peace with Ari, like, launching a new product like sheets in an unconventional way.

Emma [0:45:16]: We also launched our enterprise product on stage with a wrap number, which got a lot of intention.

Dave [0:45:23]: Oh, I saw.

Dave [0:45:24]: I was not gonna...

Dave [0:45:24]: I I have it on my list, but I was gonna see how this conversation went and I wasn't gonna bring it up.

Dave [0:45:28]: Regardless, that was a perfect example of, like, maybe all P is good P because it did drive a ton of awareness for Cam with...

Dave [0:45:35]: However you feel about how the rap actually went down.

Emma [0:45:38]: Yeah.

Emma [0:45:38]: I mean, I think the thing about this is...

Emma [0:45:40]: You have to be absolutely una yourself.

Emma [0:45:44]: You have to do that.

Emma [0:45:45]: Otherwise, you lose yourself.

Emma [0:45:47]: And taking things to market in an unconventional way that has credibility but also playful is very true to who we are.

Emma [0:45:55]: And at the end of the day, b to b These are people.

Emma [0:45:58]: And it's very easy to get lost.

Emma [0:46:00]: We live in a noisy world.

Emma [0:46:01]: And we want to create work that demonstrates value and also delight people and makes them want to start a conversation.

Emma [0:46:08]: And makes them want to share.

Emma [0:46:10]: And we actually think that's not a frivolous exercise, but it's actually creating the best value that we can for the business.

Dave [0:46:18]: Love it.

Dave [0:46:18]: Amen, sister.

Dave [0:46:19]: That's it's a great...

Dave [0:46:20]: The people thing is great.

Dave [0:46:21]: Like, and I I think that is just a...

Dave [0:46:23]: It underrated thing.

Dave [0:46:25]: Granted, I saw a stat today that said by twenty twenty seven, ninety seven percent of the B2b b buying journey is gonna be done by Ai.

Dave [0:46:32]: So may...

Dave [0:46:32]: I don't know.

Dave [0:46:33]: I Every day, I'm learning and changing my opinion about what the future holds but half kidding, but I do always go back to, like, the timeless lessons and marketing, understanding people understanding psychology.

Dave [0:46:43]: Yeah.

Dave [0:46:44]: Anyway, I could hang out with you all for forever.

Dave [0:46:46]: Maybe we'll hang out in person sometime in the future, but this is great.

Dave [0:46:50]: Thanks for help making this happen.

Dave [0:46:52]: Do me favor.

Dave [0:46:53]: If you're listening this episode.

Dave [0:46:54]: Send me a message.

Dave [0:46:55]: David Exit Five dot com or or reach out to emma Christina on Linkedin.

Dave [0:47:00]: That's actually my favorite form of feedback.

Dave [0:47:01]: I don't care about a Cta.

Dave [0:47:03]: I want you to go to them and like, send a bunch of Linkedin mess and connections and I'm like, people actually do listen to that podcast.

Dave [0:47:09]: That that means a lot.

Dave [0:47:10]: So I appreciate you both hanging out.

Dave [0:47:12]: Awesome, Keep doing great things at Canva.

Dave [0:47:14]: I could be in your next ad if you want, like, you know, from two fairy messages to board decks, like, look what Dave did.

Dave [0:47:21]: I'm just saying...

Dave [0:47:22]: You can work have my people you.

Emma [0:47:25]: Already scheming know that collab.

Dave [0:47:27]: I'm mean.

Dave [0:47:27]: Reach out to my people.

Dave [0:47:28]: We can make someone happen, but, there's it's great.

Dave [0:47:30]: I am like a truly a marketing nerd with this.

Dave [0:47:32]: Like, this is me scrambling.

Dave [0:47:33]: Like, I got so many note for this today.

Dave [0:47:35]: So awesome.

Dave [0:47:36]: Great to hang with you both.

Dave [0:47:37]: I hope you have a great rest of day rest of the week and I'll see you all soon.

Kristine [0:47:40]: Thank you.

Dave [0:47:45]: Hey.

Dave [0:47:45]: Thanks for listening to this podcast.

Dave [0:47:46]: If you like this episode.

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Dave [0:47:48]: I'm not even gonna ask you to subscribe and leave a review because I don't really care about that.

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