#226: What’s Your One Key Message? Mastering B2B Messaging & Copywriting with Diane Wiredu, Founder of Lion Words

#226: Messaging | In this episode, Dave sits down with Diane Wiredu, messaging expert and founder of Lion Words, a consultancy that helps B2B tech and SaaS companies achieve message-market fit so they can stand out, market more effectively, and sell more. Diane breaks down why most B2B messaging falls flat, how to fix it, and why messaging is more than just copy—it’s the bridge between positioning and execution.

Dave and Diane cover:

• The difference between positioning and messaging (and why both matter)
• How to create a messaging strategy that actually resonates
• Why most B2B messaging sucks and how to fix it
• How to structure homepage messaging for maximum impact
• How to get the most value from customer research for copywriting

Timestamps

• (00:00) - – Intro to Diane
  
• (03:29) - – What is message-market fit and why does it matter?
  
• (06:43) - – The biggest messaging mistakes B2B companies make
  
• (09:09) - – The difference between positioning and messaging (and why both matter)
  
• (12:37) - – How to create a messaging strategy that actually resonates
  
• (15:54) - – Signs your messaging isn’t working and how to fix it
  
• (19:28) - – The role of customer research in B2B messaging
  
• (23:01) - – How to structure a homepage message hierarchy that converts
  
• (28:33) - – What makes a great value proposition vs. a generic one
  
• (31:07) - – How to test and validate your messaging with real customers
  
• (34:51) - – Why messaging needs to be clear, not clever
  
• (38:22) - – Common struggles B2B teams face when implementing new messaging
  
• (41:58) - – Final takeaways

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Former startup CMO Dave Gerhardt and guests share their marketing knowledge to help drive revenue at your company and grow your career in marketing. The podcast mostly covers B2B SaaS, but there's something applicable for anyone working in marketing today.Dave Gerhardt [00:00:00]:

You're listening to B2B marketing with me, Dave Gerhardt. My guest on this episode is Diane Wiredu. She is an amazing B2B marketing, messaging, and copywriting consultant. She runs a company called Lion Words. She's helped some of your favorite B2B SaaS brands improve their messaging and improve their copy. And what we talk about on this episode, including why maybe all the frameworks and methodologies you don't need, and you need to just focus more on finding your one key message. If you feel like your story is not landing with prospects and customers, or if it could just get better. This is an episode you don't want to miss.

Dave Gerhardt [00:00:48]:

Enjoy my conversation here with Diane. Can you introduce yourself and let listeners know who you are before we get into all your knowledge? Yeah.

Diane Wiredu [00:00:56]:

So I'm Diane Wiredu. I am a messaging strategist, conversion copywriter, and the founder of Lion Words, which is a messaging consultancy for B2B tech and SaaS companies. So I help teams essentially create clear, compelling messaging that resonates with buyers. Right. So it's pretty niche, I think, but also the impact is kind of huge. So messaging is all about how can we make the value of your products and your services much easier to understand. So obviously you can, you know, get better results from marketing assets and so on. So, yeah, so the.

Diane Wiredu [00:01:34]:

The scope of my work is often split into kind of two parts. So one, the messaging piece, messaging strategy. So getting clarity on the core messaging itself, documenting that. So what is the unique value you provide? What are the most important, relevant things about your product that we need to highlight? As well, as I like to also look at, you know, the context, the story, the point of view that you operate in, because I think that also sets the foundation for strong and effective copy. And then the second piece is like the copywriting. So then how do we translate that into. How do we translate that messaging into copy for key marketing assets, which primarily the homepage and across the website. So now we know what.

Diane Wiredu [00:02:12]:

How do we say it, right? How do we organize those messages across the page using conversion, copywriting principles and so on? So, yeah, in many cases, phase one is actually where the engagement ends. With companies that I work with, you know, if you have the building box and the strategy to run with that, but with some companies, then I come in and help them execute on that as well.

Dave Gerhardt [00:02:30]:

How much does the positioning impact what you like? Do you help companies with positioning or did they have a position and then you execute on the copy? Because there is an important relationship between those two I'm curious to hear how you navigate that.

Diane Wiredu [00:02:47]:

Oh, definitely. Yeah. So my position on positioning has shifted a bunch over the years. Like, if you asked me like a year ago or two years ago, I was like, I don't touch positioning. I don't work with companies who don't have that positioning dialed in because it's a whole beast in itself. And I'm not a positioning consultant. Like, really, where my, my zone of genius and expertise is around the messaging piece and then, you know, translating that into copy. But messaging is this bridge between your positioning in the market, what you do, who for, where you sit, that context setting, getting those messages super clear, and then how do we transform that? And so over the years, like, I, it's impossible not to touch the positioning piece.

Diane Wiredu [00:03:29]:

Like, it's impossible because messaging, it's garbage in, garbage out. And so, yes, I have had to kind of adapt my process a little bit. I think that my messaging, that discovery process of just kind of getting under the hood of a business and understanding what they do, who for and how there's a part of that that is positioning refinement anyway. Right. And so I'm trying to make sure that it is as completely dialed in and as locked in as possible. I'm trying to make sure that, you know, who you say your ICP is, like, is as absolutely dialed in as it can be. Because, like, if a company comes to me and like, oh yeah, we, you know, we sell to like Fortune 500 companies, I'm like, ah, like red flag, you know, like, I can't. How can I message to those people? So, yeah, it's a roundabout way of saying yes, I kind of, I touch on it.

Diane Wiredu [00:04:19]:

You know, I love, you know, April Dunford's methodology, like, is brilliant. Right. So I kind of approach those positioning pieces following that. Right. So I try to find those different blocks of, you know, what are the competitive standards of who's the market you win in. And if all of that is refined and clear, then we build on top of that.

Dave Gerhardt [00:04:34]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you might often uncover you might be working on copy, and then you might uncover like a bridge to stronger positioning through copy.

Diane Wiredu [00:04:43]:

100%, yes.

Dave Gerhardt [00:04:46]:

Because I think so. I, I've, when I first, like, went out on my own, one of the things I did was positioning and messaging, and I didn't realize how different the two things were. And at first I wanted to just do positioning. I'm good at that exercise and I found that companies find it valuable and you can charge good money for it. Right. Because it's such an impactful thing, although not enough. I w. I wish the.

Dave Gerhardt [00:05:07]:

The most gangster model would be like, if you could do it like the old school copywriters and be like, if you really believe in this, let some percentage of sales.

Diane Wiredu [00:05:13]:

Let me get. Yeah. Royalties. Yes.

Dave Gerhardt [00:05:15]:

But they don't. It's like, oh, we'll give you five grand to like, write our website copy. And I'm like, well, what if. Hold on. What if, like, this new website brings in hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions of dollars in revenue? They just don't think that way. So. But I found one of the challenges with positioning is, and even I've felt this as a VP of marketing is you bring in someone in, you do this great positioning, but then you just. It's just sits in this dock and it's like the messaging is the actual execution of it.

Dave Gerhardt [00:05:39]:

And I've seen lots of companies where you have good positioning that lives inside of a Google Doc somewhere, but it needs to be on the homepage. You need a killer website. You need to like execute on the copy. And so there's this kind of weird relationship between the two of them that, that I think often lacks from a delivery standpoint.

Diane Wiredu [00:05:53]:

Yeah. So what's interesting about what you're saying as well is I actually think that messaging is that bridge that you're kind of talking about here. So I don't really use the term like homepage messaging. Right. Because to me, even within that, there's a little bit of a. Kind of a contradiction. And so what I think of when I talk about messaging is.

Dave Gerhardt [00:06:13]:

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What is the. What is the contradiction? What's the contradiction?

Diane Wiredu [00:06:17]:

Okay, okay. So when we, when we're looking at a homepage, we're looking at the copy. And often for many people who are assessing what you see on the homepage, like, they can't see past the copy. Right. There is messaging. Messaging. Essentially, if I'm going to break this down, because a lot of people ask me, okay, what's the difference between messaging and copy? Isn't it the same thing? So the way that I break this down is messaging is what you say about your product, your services. Right.

Diane Wiredu [00:06:40]:

And then simply put, copy is like how you say that. Right? So messaging, we need to really get down to the nitty gritty. It's all about articulating the value, the uniqueness of your product in a clear, relevant, differentiated way. What are the messages? What are the interesting things that we need to bring to the forefront? How can we Articulate what you do and why that matters and who for in a clear way. Right. And so those are the kind of those key messaging blocks. And there are so many different ways that we can shape your messaging. And then that's what most people see when we're looking and we're going in and we're analyzing headlines, we're analyzing, you know, benefit messages and product and kind of the structure.

Diane Wiredu [00:07:18]:

But I think honestly that a lot of companies think they have a copy problem, but the reality is they have a messaging problem. And so many companies are coming in, looking at the homepage and like, oh, tweaking. We want to tweak this and optimize and change wording and realize that actually you need to take a step back and figure out, like, what is it that we're saying and why? And part of that prioritization, refining that, that's. That's how I kind of approach messaging. So I don't think that's controversial. I just think that sometimes it's worth kind of clarifying that. Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [00:07:50]:

And I also think, I think it like somebody bringing in someone like you into a company, I think is perfect example of, like, when you should turn to outside help. Basically, there's kind of two. Two guests that I have on the show. There's either like CMOs and marketing leaders, and we talk about running a marketing team. And. And then I bring on subject matter experts like you to talk about copy and messaging. Or maybe there's an SEO person or maybe a product marketing person. And I think one of the mistakes I've made in, in trying to like, oh, someone on the team can do this because you paid for them and you want to have them do it.

Dave Gerhardt [00:08:19]:

But I do think that especially with things like messaging and copy, you want to hire someone who. This is all they do, right? You have. You have 50 companies that you've worked with, and you can pull from all those lessons and you have a way and you have your framework. You might have a great writer on the team, but it might make more sense to bring in an outside, outside person. You know, we're thinking about how I really want to grow traffic to our website this year, and I want to do it through SEO, and we could certainly do that through the team. But I also think, like, bringing in someone who's helped grow, you know, dozens of websites, multiple levers of growth and traffic, they're going to have that level of expertise. You know what I'm trying to say? It's like there are areas where you want to hire that specialist. And I think you're an example of that.

Diane Wiredu [00:09:01]:

Yeah, definitely. I think it is the kind of unfair advantage when you just do one particular thing over and over again and getting to see so many different businesses and how they approach it. And I also think that's one of the reasons that messaging is so hard. Right. It's one of the reasons why, you know, it's so easy for me to kind of sit here and talk about best practices and how to optimize it or why messaging sucks. X, Y, Z. But, you know, there is the reality that the reason that founders and marketers and product marketers find this so hard is because it is tough. Like, you're.

Diane Wiredu [00:09:33]:

You're building, you know, B2B. You have a product or a service that is solving a real valuable product problem for, you know, for. For an audience. And you have so many things that you want to say, and there are so many ways to approach it. And also, you're so close to the product of the service itself. Right. It's like the, you know, the inside the jar syndrome. Right.

Diane Wiredu [00:09:52]:

So when you're inside the jar, you can't read the label. I don't know who first said that. I heard it years ago. And, like, I've kind of stuck by that since. And so bringing someone in that just has that kind of outside perspective and kind of can see things clearly and can also challenge you on, like, okay, why are we. Why are we saying this? Like, where does this come from? Are there assumptions that we're kind of making and bringing to the forefront? Are we getting caught up in following competitors or, like, phantom competitors? I think April Dunford talks about phantom competitors and positioning. Are we actually trying to compete with something that we're not really competing with? What do we need to lead with? So, yeah, having that outside set of eyes to come in definitely helps. And I know that I've had a lot of feedback from companies that one of the things that they've enjoyed about the process isn't just doing it, but also the pushback and the challenge.

Diane Wiredu [00:10:34]:

So I can get a bit challenging at times and kind of push back on. Okay, why? So what. What's going on? But yeah, it's necessary sometimes to get down to clear messaging and just to kind of remove all of the fluff as well. Right. Like, you have to unpack. It's like peeling an onion.

Dave Gerhardt [00:10:48]:

I think the exercise of having someone who doesn't work inside of your company and you saying, so what is really powerful. I think it's when you're Inside the company, it's a little bit easier. You know, you get more defensive about it. And when you have someone outside saying, like, hold on, I don't. I don't actually know what this means. Well, well, you're not our ideal customer. Well, no, no, hold on. Let's.

Dave Gerhardt [00:11:07]:

Let's keep going on this. Like, what is this? What does this actually mean? And then it's also harder today because everyone has already said the thing. It's much harder to be unique and be the only one today, which is typically, like, great marketing is about owning your facts. What great facts do you have? And oftentimes the facts can't just get made up from marketing. They need to be driven by the product, the roadmap, your customer. And it's harder than ever to find unique things. Then you also have companies who are saying the same thing, but they might not do it. You know, I've talked to founders before, and there's like, yeah, you know, five companies in our space say they do it, but we're the only ones who really do it that way.

Dave Gerhardt [00:11:38]:

It's like, okay, well, then how do we. How can we explain that exactly?

Diane Wiredu [00:11:41]:

How do you message that? You know, this reminds me of this idea of just kind of sprinkling on differentiation. Like, I feel. I feel like a lot of copywriters and messaging strategists get called in to just kind of like, can you just make us sound a bit different? You know, can you just, like, sprinkle this on? And it's like, differentiation is not something that you can, you know, sprinkle on. And like you said, it's harder with more products, more messages, more saturation in the market to actually cut through that noise. And also, it's hard, particularly within B2B, like, tech products. Okay. You know, we can look at your actual software, but B2B services and agencies, like, differentiation is like a hard concept. Right.

Diane Wiredu [00:12:22]:

Because often it sits at that intersection between your process, like the way that you work, your team. Right. So your credibility, the expertise that you have, but as well as the actual product and services that you deliver. And so sometimes I think that one of the challenges that companies have when it comes to their messaging is that they're trying. Trying to find this, you know, the. The old. The usp. Like, I don't know if the USP exists anymore.

Diane Wiredu [00:12:45]:

I don't think, as a concept, it's a valid thing to search for, because usually it's like this amalgamation of these different things and how we express that.

Dave Gerhardt [00:12:53]:

So USP is unique selling Properties.

Diane Wiredu [00:12:56]:

Unique selling point.

Dave Gerhardt [00:12:57]:

Yeah, a unique selling point. And you don't think companies can have one anymore?

Diane Wiredu [00:13:01]:

It's not that I don't think that it's possible at all. I just think that the concept itself is probably a bit outdated. And for many B2B companies, particularly B2B Tech and SaaS, I think it can. It's a bit of an outdated and almost damaging concept to look for this one particular selling point.

Dave Gerhardt [00:13:21]:

Yeah.

Diane Wiredu [00:13:22]:

As if there is like this golden ticket, the golden snitch, like feature or aspect of our product that is going to sell it. I think that we do need to look for a key message. Right. Key message is. Yes, but that one particular selling point. I think that what our differentiation actually is, particularly in B2B, is usually that intersection between various elements. Right. And kind of finding that and also focusing more on the actual problem that you solve.

Diane Wiredu [00:13:50]:

Right. So more the kind of lens of a value proposition. So I lean much more into value proposition frameworks instead of like selling points, because a value proposition, we can focus much more on the actual user, the client, the buyer, and how we solve a problem for them in a particular way.

Dave Gerhardt [00:14:07]:

Can we double click into that and just explain, like what. How would you articulate the difference between like a. A value proposition, a proposition of value and a selling proposition?

Diane Wiredu [00:14:17]:

Yeah, so let's go into how I approach a value prop, because I don't know if I have a good definition for a unique selling point. Right. We might need to. We might need to pull one up and contrast it. But to me, a value proposition, I.

Dave Gerhardt [00:14:33]:

Just mean what are you trying to get at by saying, like, lead with value? Because value is not going to be. I get what you're saying. It's not going to be. One of the things that I have struggled with in the past with, you know, marketing B2B products is you talk to the founders or one person in the company. Like, this is, you know, we have. We have this feature and this is what makes us different. And it's like, yeah, but they're not just buying that one feature. There's hundreds of other things.

Dave Gerhardt [00:14:55]:

So is it something around, like telling the broader story about who you're for, why you exist, and the overall value of using your product? You almost want to like elevate the discussion. Instead of making it about a particular feature, you want to have a one plus one equals three kind of story about why your product is the right one for them.

Diane Wiredu [00:15:12]:

Yeah, definitely. So I definitely see kind of value proposition as a key element of messaging and in its Simplest form, if we break it down, a value proposition to me is just a promise of value that you make. Right? And so I found that the most compelling value propositions kind of touch on the fact that customers are trying to do something a certain way, a pain or a struggle around that, and then your product kind of offers that transformation. And so for me, what I'm trying to do when I create value propositions for clients is how can we distill that into something that is concise, specific, a statement that is valuable and desirable about your solution or your offer. Right? So a strong value proposition to me is going to answer how does your product or service solve a real issue or real pain that your ideal customers are having? So, you know, for me, particularly at Linewear, it's the way that I kind of break it down is what's. I start by looking at the old way, right? So how are they doing things before? What's the problem with that way? Why was that not working? And then connecting that to something that your customers or your buyers can actually do right now thanks to some aspect, some attribute or some feature of your product, and then the impact that that has or the gain that they can gain from that. Right? So kind of breaking down those elements to me actually is an easier way to almost kind of codify actually what the key value that you deliver. And then the really important part of it that we kind of like skipped across is like, okay, but value according to who, right? Because like value according to us.

Diane Wiredu [00:16:43]:

Like we don't get to decide what the value is from our product. And so I approach, my messaging process is very much customer focused and customer informed. To me, it, it only stands that to create messaging that resonates with customers, we need to actually go out and speak to customers and understand how they think, how they speak, how they feel about not only our products, but also the kind of whole ecosystem and that kind of decision making process. And so all of this can't be done in isolation as well. It also has to be informed by what value are they gaining and like actually performing voice of customer research and competitor research as well.

Dave Gerhardt [00:17:18]:

You mentioned the customer's words. One of the things we do this at exit 5. I've done this at past companies before. We're very active on social media. We get lots of email comments and replies. And I think probably even if you're not in an industry where that's possible, you can still get this. But the best for all of the time that I can go spent alone in the woods, walking, trying to figure out some witty way to say something from a copy standpoint. You'll get an email from a customer who's explaining your product in their words, and you're like, oh, my gosh, this is an amazing way to say it.

Dave Gerhardt [00:17:49]:

And we screenshot it, and we have a Slack channel. And I push everybody on our team who writes copy, whether it's like Matt, who's doing it for the community, Danielle, who's doing it for the website, to keep a swipe file of things people say about Exit 5, because I found that that's the best building block to go and write copy. So instead of just in your own head and trying to think about those words, all of a sudden someone describes Exit 5 in their words. Not trying to be a marketer, but just literally how they would explain it to someone else. And I'm like, man, we didn't think of this. This is a great way to do it. And I love having like, a notion file or Google Doc or something where I can scroll through and just look at the ways people are talking about our product.

Diane Wiredu [00:18:26]:

Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt [00:18:27]:

Do you do anything like that?

Diane Wiredu [00:18:28]:

Exactly. So what you're talking about there is what Joanna Weber, who's like founder of Copy Hacker, she calls sticky copy. And I've always loved that term because I call it, like, interesting or memorable copy. But I think sticky is. Is the best. And yeah, I always, like, as part of that voice of customer research process, I always have like a tab of just messages, word for word, that have stood out, that are memorable, that kind of make you sit up and jolt and think about something in a different way. And I think you're highlighting something that's really important. Because I know that marketers are not new to customer research.

Diane Wiredu [00:19:04]:

Right. Everybody out there is saying, talk to your customers. Use the customer's words. Every single copywriter is like, you know, employing this tactic. But I think it's not just using your customer's words. It's also finding interesting ways, unusual and unique angles to speak about your product. So within my kind of messaging process, the first part of that voice of customer piece is just looking for key information and having a real conversation, looking for pains and problems, looking for objections, hesitations, anxieties. So, like, I start by prioritizing and theming and grouping those messages so that that helps me kind of map out what's important, what's not, what's coming up.

Diane Wiredu [00:19:53]:

Right. But then beyond that, once you've got that data and said, okay, maybe we need to lean into this message more than the other because it's come up so much. Then the question becomes, how can we express that in a different way? Like one example that I often see working with B2P software is prospects will often parrot back jargon and, you know, vague buzzwords because they've, like, they've seen it. So they'll say, oh, we want an out of the box solution. And so you'll get on 10 my customer calls and everyone will say, we need an out of the box solution. So if you just take out the, you know, the most repeated message and put that on your website, you can still end up sounding like everybody else. Because as humans, we are also parrots. So looking and listening out, like what you said to.

Diane Wiredu [00:20:38]:

For unusual things is key. Like looking beyond that surface level stuff. Because just listening to your customers and just using the words of your customers isn't enough to actually differentiate your copy and your messaging.

Dave Gerhardt [00:20:53]:

Nice. That's. That's well said. I like that you talked about something that in there that I think is such an important ingredient of messaging, copywriting, storytelling. And I just want to build on it. It's like this idea of organizing the story a little bit. Organizing the ingredients. You mentioned bucketing the ingredients.

Dave Gerhardt [00:21:12]:

Like, yeah, I have a founder friend that I help on, you know, in my, in my free time with marketing and storytelling. And he's amazing product, really compelling product, story. But he's an engineer, right? And it's just like fact, thing, thing, thing, thing, thing. And I'm like, let me take a stab at this. I always kind of like, rely on the rule of threes. I initially picked this up from. There's a great book called the Presentation Secrets of Steve Jobs by this guy called Carmine Gallo. And Steve Jobs was amazing.

Dave Gerhardt [00:21:45]:

I think the best marketing storyteller just for his ability to simplify things. And if you ever need inspiration, just go watch like the, go to YouTube, go watch like the iPhone Keynote his ability to take big things and simplify them down. The first ipod was a thousand songs in your pocket, right? Things like that. Anyway, he talks about how his presentations were often organized in groups of three. And so I feel like this is true in, in B2B a lot. It's like we got so many things to say. I like simplifying. And for some reason, humans are wired to remember groups of three.

Dave Gerhardt [00:22:16]:

Like here you have an emergency, you dial 9, 1, 1. If you got lit on fire, it's stop, drop, and roll, right? It is, right? You know, there's three parts of a story. There's 1, 2, 3. Hey, I got three things I want to talk about. Boom, boom, boom. And so I like to just have, like, simple frameworks like that for, like. It's overwhelming to try to boil down this story. I kind of want to organize this into three sections.

Dave Gerhardt [00:22:37]:

And actually, what I'm hearing with your product story is there's kind of three sections. There's this first part, which is kind of like the data. Then there's this part, which is kind of like the. The engine. And then there's this part, which is like the AI, you know, copilot or whatever. And. Okay, now we have these three sections. Now we can work from there.

Dave Gerhardt [00:22:53]:

Do you. You ever feel like I see you smiling? But I often. And I often think about the saying that kind of great writing is also great editing. It's really just an active editing. And I do think a lot of this is like, let's organize this. Let's organize the parts, and then from there, we can whittle and make the copy sharper.

Diane Wiredu [00:23:08]:

Yeah. Okay. So the reason I'm smiling and almost laughing is because, like, there's a point in that that I kind of want to kind of contradict you.

Dave Gerhardt [00:23:15]:

I would hope so. It's about time somebody pushed back on this damn podcast.

Diane Wiredu [00:23:19]:

Okay. No, because there's a couple of different. There's so many avenues. I'm trying to also wrangle your thoughts here, Dave, because you do, like, you have. You throw out a lot of thoughts. I'm trying to decide which avenue I want to take with this, because it's so interesting. Like, storytelling is so vast and, you know, immense, and there's so many things that we can touch on with that. So I kind of want to come back to the idea of structure and flow and hierarchy, because I think that's really key, and I think it's something that we don't talk about enough when it comes to B2B messaging and copywriting.

Diane Wiredu [00:23:49]:

So we'll, like, put that on ice. But I want to pick up first on what you said about, like, the power of three and the rule of three, because I haven't.

Dave Gerhardt [00:23:57]:

I made it. No, we'll come back to the other.

Diane Wiredu [00:23:59]:

Okay, awesome. Great. Because I forget thing, like, in one ear and out in the other. So I have a bit of a bugbear with, like, the power of three. Right. So I'm not going against every single storytelling. Great. Like, you know, I'm a linguist by heart, and I've studied English and linguistics, and it's irrefutable that the Parrot 3 works in terms of storytelling.

Diane Wiredu [00:24:22]:

But here's where the problem comes in. The problem comes in is where founders, marketers now apply the power of three to headlines, value prop, value props, and think that we need to say three messages and it's the reason that we end up with really fluffy, horrible, like, headlines that make me itch, that are just like, automate, optimize.

Dave Gerhardt [00:24:49]:

Yeah. Or like sometimes maybe two of the things are really good and the third one is there just to be the third one.

Diane Wiredu [00:24:55]:

Right. So what I want to do, because I just want to make sure that no one comes away thinking, Diane said use the Power 3 and then they go and put the Power 3 on their website.

Dave Gerhardt [00:25:03]:

No, that was me who said that. That was me who said that. Let's be clear.

Diane Wiredu [00:25:06]:

Yeah, but this definitely applies for, like, overarching, big storytelling stuff. But if we bring this now to like a practical level, headline value prop, this stuff, where companies really need to focus on is like prioritizing further. Right. If I land on a website and in the value proposition, you're telling me that you do X, Y and Z, when I click off that, which message am I going to remember? Right. What am I actually going to go away and associate with you and your product and your company? And so I do think occasionally when it comes to B2B products and services, we kind of use this structure of three as a little bit of a cop out. And my approach, particularly on the sentence level with messaging, is making sure that each sentence contains one message. I think right now there is a bit of a pandemic of just overstuffing messaging. It's like with products in tech, we see product bloat.

Diane Wiredu [00:26:08]:

And I think that we also have kind of messaging bloat where there are just so many messages. And it's really hard for customers and prospects to kind of know what you're talking about when you're kind of saying, we do this, this and this, and we do this, this, and we're, you know, we are the fastest, most efficient, safest product on the market. Cool. Put a stake in the ground and tell me which one of those you are so that I can go away and have that in mind as a point of reference. So, yeah, I know that's slightly different.

Dave Gerhardt [00:26:37]:

No, it's good. So instead of having kind of like three things that are all 33%. 33%, 33%. Here's our story. It maybe it pays more to own one of those messages. And that is the thing. We are the safest car. Like, we are the safest car.

Dave Gerhardt [00:26:53]:

On the, on the road or something like that. Like, you can own one stronger, be stronger with it, and own one of them 100%.

Diane Wiredu [00:26:59]:

I mean, it's one of the hardest parts of the messaging work that I do with companies is really getting cutthroat and being disciplined and cutting messages and prioritizing. The more we say, the more we put the onus on prospects to actually kind of figure out what we're all about and what we're best at. And so one of the kind of exercises that I like to do with companies, just a really simple one, is just asking the question, you know, if prospects customers were to walk away having remembered one thing, what would it be? And that's often like an interesting question, just like the start of engagement or throughout an engagement to just kind of bring us back and remember, okay, well, what's the message here? And so maybe we can come back to kind of like hierarchy. But when we're thinking about messaging elements or on a homepage. Right. Each actual section or each part or element really needs to kind of hone in on one key message. And so, yeah, my kind of advice would be, beware of the power of three when it comes to website copywriting. Right.

Diane Wiredu [00:27:57]:

Big picture storytelling, power of three, always. Right. Every time I do a conference presentation, I do a talk, like I do a keynote. You will be damn sure that I'm going to have three acts. Like, there is always going to be three acts in my presentation. Right. But when it comes to, like a value proposition, we need to kind of dial that down to one thing.

Dave Gerhardt [00:28:15]:

Yeah, that's nice. I really like that. I wrote it down because it's just. I take notes during this, but I like, if prospects had to remember one thing about your product, what would it be?

Diane Wiredu [00:28:24]:

It's a tough question.

Dave Gerhardt [00:28:25]:

Like, think about that. For every one of you that's listening right now, you're on the treadmill, you're pulling weeds in the garden, you're cleaning the dishes, you're doing the dishes. You're just walking around the house. Think about that. For all the messaging frameworks and positioning frameworks and this and that, like, what is the one thing that a prospect could remember about your product?

Diane Wiredu [00:28:43]:

Yeah, what's that? I kind of. I call it the. The okm. What's your one key message? What's that? North Star. And obviously, you know, we're not only going to say one thing, but it's just good to have, yeah. This kind of gravitational pull towards something and have a stake in the, in.

Dave Gerhardt [00:28:59]:

The ground around Something one key message. I like that. Okm. And because that's a question that to me that's not just solved by the marketer or the writer.

Diane Wiredu [00:29:09]:

Not at all. Right. It's a much bigger thing. But I mean, personally, I don't see that messaging is just a marketing thing. I really think that messaging problems are leadership problems as well. It's why any engagement that I do with a B2B startup or scale up involves the founder, CEO. I don't work with a company if the founder or CEO won't be involved. And I work with the C suite leadership.

Diane Wiredu [00:29:33]:

So we get head of sales involved, we get customer success, we get all of those key people. Because creating messaging in like this isolation and then going and telling everyone, hey, this is what we created. Like you need internal alignment, you need internal consistency and you need a championed beyond just product marketing. Right. I do think that when we're talking about company or product messaging, a lot of companies like they have one product anyway. If we're not talking about a suite, we need clarity across the board and we need everyone to be talking from the same hymn sheet.

Dave Gerhardt [00:30:02]:

Yeah, I love it. It just like, I think too often the marketer, the writer, whoever's just thrown like the problem of differentiation or answering that question, what's the key message? And then what happens is you might pick one, but then like this VP that doesn't align with her interests and so she wants it to be something else. And then this person and then the product leader is like, well, that's not even really on the roadmap. We're actually kind of investing majorly in this other area. And so that doesn't feel good because how does our, you know, main message on the homepage, it's not actually where we're going anymore. That's old news. It's just so much nonsense and conflict.

Diane Wiredu [00:30:33]:

Yeah, it's bigger than that, you know, and if you don't have. Sorry, I just cut you off, then I didn't meet what you should be.

Dave Gerhardt [00:30:38]:

This is why you're here, lady. This is what you. This is what I need more. I've had some guests recently. I had somebody that pitched me to come on the show and then I had them come on the show. And the interview was like, yes, Dave, next question. I'm like, wait, you want. You asked to come on here?

Diane Wiredu [00:30:54]:

So this is great.

Dave Gerhardt [00:30:54]:

This is what I want.

Diane Wiredu [00:30:55]:

Yeah. So what was I doing when I was cutting you off then? Let me get back in the zone. Yeah. So you know, messaging is often as well it's the embodiment and reflection of a type of strategy, right? So like what is the strategy for the product? And so sometimes the reason that marketers struggle to prioritize and refine is also because they're getting conflicting messages. And about like, what is the strategy for this product anyway? And I'm not trying to say like this high level, like fluffy vision for the company and our mission. I'm talking about like the actual product. Right. And sometimes if the go to market or the product team isn't even aligned on what this thing is, then of course it's going to be hard to message it.

Dave Gerhardt [00:31:34]:

Like no doubt yesterday you wrote this headline, formula has B2B and SaaS, startups and chokehold. Right? Now, the category for audience, I get the appeal. It's clean, simple, clear. And sometimes when you're truly serving a specific underserved audience in a well defined category, it hits the mark perfectly. But most B2B tech products don't neatly fit into this rigid box. Can you expand on this? Why do people use this formula? Why do you hate it? What are the challenges with it? And then like what works instead?

Diane Wiredu [00:32:02]:

Yeah, it's just driving me a little bit crazy and I think I'm kind of, it's a bit harsh because I'm picking a little bit of a fight with like, it's like the early stage, right. I think that so many companies have seen we are the all in one platform for this audience or we are the, you know, the CRM for this type of, for whatever, icp. And then they come along and think that they need to do the same thing. Like right now I'm working with a founder who is building a really cool product, but it spans across like supply chain, inventory tracking, demand planning. And at the start of the project he has tried to use this formula, right. And it, you know, people fall into this trap. So it's like, oh, it's this big operating system for like consumer brands. But the problem with that is using this because this is essentially like, it's a positioning angle and then you're kind of trying to fit the copy in it, right? It can work.

Diane Wiredu [00:33:00]:

If you are serving a really, really specific subset of the market and you have a really clearly defined category, then I am, I'm thinking of an example like Foak. Foak is a CRM. Actually, I can't remember the message. There's another company, like the less annoying CRM, right? That's great. They know that's good positioning. You are a CRM. Got it and you're telling me that I'm not gonna. It's for the people who can't handle the complexity of like the HubSpot and the Salesforce and xyz.

Diane Wiredu [00:33:27]:

But when you're actually solving a problem for various profiles, you probably competing with various different alternatives, not necessarily category competitors. Most SaaS tech products are actually competing with other processes and other workflows and workarounds and hiring something and doing nothing. And so then this framework itself isn't the best way to actually express and put across the positioning and the value of your product. And so what this comment was and what this post was was just like, take a step back and don't try to follow formulas from other websites and other companies that it works for. Don't try and fit, you know, your positioning that actually is over here. Using my hands too much for a podcast. Sorry, guys.

Dave Gerhardt [00:34:18]:

Oh, it's video. We're good. We got another video.

Diane Wiredu [00:34:20]:

Okay, awesome. Cool. You know, don't try and fit. You know, it's like, it's like squishing. It's like squishing like, you know, an octopus in like a Tupperware, though probably that's a terrible analogy because they would fit. But anyway, let me go back to the point. Like, it doesn't work. So there are lots of different approaches that work better.

Diane Wiredu [00:34:37]:

And you know, it comes down to what is the best angle or what is the best hook for your positioning. And for a lot of companies, leaning in and calling out a pain point or a problem is a much better way to actually position the value of your product. Right. So contextualizing the value of your product based on the problem that all of your customers have and how you solve it is better. Particularly like in the case of the firm that I'm working with, where the problem spans across lots of different users. So like ops users demand planning X, Y, Z, but the problem and the pain is the same. Or like we've touched on value proposition. So actually leading with the value, like the specific thing that your product allows customers to do that makes more sense.

Diane Wiredu [00:35:21]:

Or using, you know, disruption, like calling out the status quo, the old way of doing things and showing a better way forward, even this is a better option. So yeah, it's a bit of a rant, but just to take a kind of a step back of using formulas because it's just, you know, I see too many, too many companies just falling trap of falling in the trap of just following this stuff blindly and then the value of what they actually do.

Dave Gerhardt [00:35:47]:

Is buried for People listening that work at a company and are listening this be like, man, she's right. Like, we need to improve our met. Like, I think we have a messaging problem. What's the next step after that? Like, what would be a way to try to tackle that at your company? Like, you just listen to this and you're like, man, she's saying a lot of things that I think, like, we're not good at at our company. What would be the next step?

Diane Wiredu [00:36:10]:

Yeah, so my. My process, if I try to kind of simplify it, I guess I could boil it down to five steps. I'll go through them really quickly because I feel like we don't. We won't have time if I try to go them in depth. And then we can figure out, you.

Dave Gerhardt [00:36:24]:

Don'T have three steps. You don't have three steps. I don't want it.

Diane Wiredu [00:36:27]:

The power of three. I almost. I should make it like eight steps just to be really awkward. Now, step one is document and evaluate where you're at. It's not a sexy name, right, for this step, but just document. Evaluate your existing messaging, your existing beliefs. Right. The reason is because we need to have a benchmark.

Diane Wiredu [00:36:48]:

Right? We need to have a point of departure. Usually with messaging, we don't need to scrap it out and throw the baby out with bathwater. You're doing something right. Your messaging got you here. It's just that we need to maybe shift it going forward. And so at this step, what I want to try and do or what I do, you can do this yourself is just what's working, what's not, what are the gaps? Is everyone telling a different story? What are they saying? What are the points of friction? What are the opportunities? What should we be saying? And so I do that personally through evaluative questions, send a questionnaire to different stakeholders. We get on a call, we kind of go through all of this stuff, but someone internally can lead that. Right.

Diane Wiredu [00:37:24]:

You don't need someone external to do that. So start by doing that. The next two steps is we've looked inward now we need to look outward. Right. So research and discovery. So first, find out what customers are saying. Right. Voice of customer research.

Diane Wiredu [00:37:37]:

I've touched on this. I'm not going to go crazy into it, but if we're going to create messaging that resonates with customers, you need to know what your customers are thinking and saying and how they feel about your product. Hopefully businesses have a decent feedback loop there. If you don't build one in, make sure that all the different teams are talking to each other and make sure this is a big part of your process because it makes life so much easier. Like you said, Dave, that you guys have a swipe file and you reach out and you know what people are saying? This is a huge help. The second part of that is find out what competitors are saying. So I do a competitor messaging audit with every company and product that I work on. And the key here is not.

Diane Wiredu [00:38:16]:

We're not looking at what competitors are saying to copy. Right. We're not trying to follow. We want to do the opposite. We want to understand what are the opportunities. We want to avoid that. Me too. Messaging.

Diane Wiredu [00:38:30]:

Where is the white space that we can go and fill? Because our messaging doesn't exist in a vacuum. Now, I talked earlier about making sure that we're not dealing with like phantom competitors. So also analyze like the right competitors, right? But look at that. You know, look at what people are saying, what are they leading with, what's working, what's not. So that you have kind of a point of reference. And then 4 and 5 is then. Now we've done that, like synthesize, right? So filter through those findings and narrow that messaging focus. So this is kind of that high bit where you've spoken to customers, you've done all this analysis, you've spoken internally, but now you need to go through.

Diane Wiredu [00:39:08]:

I don't use AI for this stuff. I do this manually. I go through call transcripts with a highlighter and an Excel sheets, and I highlight and bold words and I look for priorities, I look for themes, I look for opportunities, and I map that all out and I feed that back to the team. And I'm like, this is what we're seeing. This is what I'm seeing. These are the priorities. This is the stuff that we need to be leading to. These are the interesting things that are coming up.

Diane Wiredu [00:39:30]:

And then based on this, we need to narrow down and we need to lean into some of these key messages or sometimes it's going to highlight. Yeah, we're on the right track. We're doing the right thing. We just need to shift that angle. And then step five is like put those pieces together, right? So lay the messaging blocks and actually document that. I think that a lot of companies would just benefit from actually having this stuff documented and a kind of source of truth as they grow and as they scale and as they hire copywriters and bring on other people and make sure that it is something useful and actionable. Right? But having that simple messaging playbook, messaging hub, like a one Pager. Right.

Diane Wiredu [00:40:09]:

Where the key messages exist and everyone can refer to it and optimize that. That kind of lays the groundwork for what comes next, which is, okay, how do we implement that on the website and so on. So wasn't super simple, but it's not crazy hard. It's not crazy complex.

Dave Gerhardt [00:40:25]:

All right, let's wrap up with this. You mentioned AI briefly. What role do you see AI playing in the future of messaging, copy websites? You're living this world right now. I don't want to lead you in a certain direction. I just kind of want to let it breathe and hear your opinion.

Diane Wiredu [00:40:42]:

Yeah. I mean, so I'm bullish on AI. I'm using AI and playing around with it, and a lot of my processes, I don't know, I don't really think that I'm the right person to say what role I see it playing.

Dave Gerhardt [00:40:54]:

Let me ask a different. Let me ask you a different question. Why wouldn't AI AI replace Diane in like, two years from now?

Diane Wiredu [00:41:00]:

Yeah, great question. AI is not something to use to think. Right. AI is something that we want to put data in, help aggregate, pull things out, look for themes, maybe look for patterns, look for angles. The way that I'm using it and the way that I think that, you know, companies should be using it is by inputting all of that differentiation, that key positioning that you figured out by actually speaking to your market and then using it to help you shape, shape copy and messaging and kind of be faster and efficient going forward. But my question often to companies that are like, okay, can't we just put in some prompts and figure out our positioning in the market and our whole strategy, and there are people selling prompts and templates to figure out your messaging. Why would you think that a data set of existing messaging out there is going to help you draw out what makes you different? Right. It just doesn't make sense.

Diane Wiredu [00:41:58]:

And so what we need to do is, like, do the thinking, maybe use it to help you challenge your thinking. Right. But I think it needs to be a tool. Right. It's not something that's actually going to help us, like, create something messaging that's clear, relevant, differentiated. It has to come from you as a company and also from your customers.

Dave Gerhardt [00:42:17]:

I feel like so often that idea comes from. You're out on a walk, you're in the middle of a CrossFit workout. Oh, I got it. I got the angle. Like, it's not right. It's not like a response back from some prompt. It's like very nuanced. Take.

Dave Gerhardt [00:42:30]:

But I do think that, like, where I can play a role is like, here are our five closest competitors. Here are all the call notes. Here are their websites. What are the patterns? Like, what can you kind of summarize, like, the patterns of how these companies go to market? And maybe we can identify what possible opportunities for us to pursue to. Could be. And then from there we can work on the messaging from there.

Diane Wiredu [00:42:50]:

Yeah, I've tried to do that and I've tested out stuff like this and it's taken me, like, to build the prompts. It's taken me so much longer, and then in the end I scrap it and I just do the thinking and come up with something. Yeah. I mean, like, even. Even writing and editing stuff, it takes me longer to prompt than it would to just even write the thing.

Dave Gerhardt [00:43:09]:

So, yeah, that's. I mean, right. You've been doing it for a long time. Like, people say to me, like, how can you, Dan. I would try to coach people on, like, writing emails, and Dan will give me a hard time because he's like, dude, not everyone has. This is what you do. And you've done it for 15 years. Like, you can't expect another person to just like, in five minutes.

Dave Gerhardt [00:43:26]:

Like, the email that might take you five minutes to write might take someone two hours to write. Because there's, you know, that is what someone is getting out of value from you and your track record and your experience and working with other companies.

Diane Wiredu [00:43:38]:

I think the basic stuff, like, you know, for sure, if you just want to regurgitate back comms, internal stuff. Right. But I also do think that there is power in putting in the reps. There is power, and there's power in sitting and not knowing what to say and having to think this through and using your synapses and getting them to talk to each other and figure shit out. Yeah. But having said all this, I'm bullish in AI and I think it's brilliant. I'm working with a lot of companies that are building AI into their products and their tools, and I use it on a daily basis. But I'm not going to outsource the thinking and the strategy, which is something so crucial and the biggest growth lever for a company.

Diane Wiredu [00:44:17]:

I'm not gonna outsource that bit.

Dave Gerhardt [00:44:18]:

I love it. All right, this is a great conversation. Go to Lion. You can go find Diane Lionwords.com but my favorite source of feedback is go to LinkedIn, follow her, send her a message, and then in a couple weeks she'll DM me and be like, yeah, people listen to the episode is awesome. And I sent her a message and say congrats on your new bench press PR this morning. That's why she's in a great mood and brought the heat today. So, Diane, great to see you. Yes, thanks for hanging out with us.

Diane Wiredu [00:44:44]:

Thanks for having me. This is really fun. I appreciate you inviting me.

Dave Gerhardt [00:44:47]:

We had a nice chat about messaging. I'll see you again soon. Okay. Hey, thanks for listening to this podcast. If you like this episode, you know what? I'm not even going to ask you to subscribe and leave a review because I don't really care about that. I have something better for you. So. So we've built the number one private community for B2B marketers at exit 5.

Dave Gerhardt [00:45:09]:

And you can go and check that out. Instead of leaving a rating or review, go check it out right now on our website, exit5.com our mission at Exit 5 is to help you grow your career in B2B marketing. And there's no better place to do that than with us at exit 5. There's nearly 5,000 members now in our community. People are in there posting every day asking questions about things like marketing, planning, ideas, inspiration, asking questions and getting feedback from your peers. Building your own network of marketers who are doing the same thing you are so you can have a peer group or maybe just venting about your boss when you need to get in there and get something off your chest. It's 100% free to join for seven days, so you can go and check it out risk free and then there's a small annual fee to pay if you want to become a member for the year. Go check it out.

Dave Gerhardt [00:45:54]:

Learn more Exit 5 and I will see you over there in the community.

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